dandan Posted June 7, 2003 Share Posted June 7, 2003 Hi all, I'm off to look at a prospective purchase in the week, a £15k Mk4 Facelift. (52,000 miles and in real good condition) I've got a post on it in the General Discussion area if anyone fancies a look. "Supra Knowledge Required ...Please" What I'm after is a photo or at least some sort of picture of where exactly the 2 CATS are. This may sound daft but I've never looked in any detail at the mechanicals before as I've never owned one. I do know what a CAT looks like (so please don't think Im a total halfwit!?!) but I was wondering, would a decat pipe be blatently obvious to spot or is it hidden behind heatshields, undertrays and such like? The owner tells me he only ever runs up to 1.0bar (via a bleed valve) and runs on normal unleaded! I'm not convinced he knows exactly what he's talking about as I thought the Jap cars run 14psi stock (ie he's only increasing boost by 0.7psi, via the bleed valve). He says the CATS are in place and is running a different exhaust. I think it is running a Super Drager. Could the boost be increased significantly above 1.0bar via the bleed valve with the CATS in place? I'm alittle worried about reliability and engine damage if this is the case....or should the knock sensor tell the ECU to retard the timing to safe limits? Anyone got any sort of opinion on this? Thanks in advance for any advice, hugely appreciated.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve W Posted June 7, 2003 Share Posted June 7, 2003 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve W Posted June 7, 2003 Share Posted June 7, 2003 Top cat...... ( )...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve W Posted June 7, 2003 Share Posted June 7, 2003 Lower cat....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve W Posted June 7, 2003 Share Posted June 7, 2003 ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve W Posted June 7, 2003 Share Posted June 7, 2003 I THINK the answer is YES, you CAN increase boost (by HIS bleed valve) WAY above 1.0 BAR with the cats there.... but, as you're thinking, BAD IDEA ! ! (boost creep / heat retention before cats etc etc) and the high boost won't work 'well' 'cos the cats are stifling the flow anyhow ! ! [i think ?] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandan Posted June 7, 2003 Author Share Posted June 7, 2003 Cheers Steve they're brilliant mate, just what I was after. Does that last pic show both cats- they're smaller than I thought for a 3 litre. Any opinions as far as the rest of the stuff about the car goes? I can give you some more info on the car if you like, and/or think you can help me out at all. The car is in E. Devon so there is noone knowledgeable nearby to have a look at the car with me. Thanks again Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandan Posted June 7, 2003 Author Share Posted June 7, 2003 just read your last post, thanks, that's pretty similar to my line of thinking. Am i right in thinking the ECU will retard the timing before any damage by detonation is done? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve W Posted June 7, 2003 Share Posted June 7, 2003 Detonation... probably (within reason) but, it's the overboosting or just plain EXCESSIVE boosting that would cause damage You can't just increase boost 'willy-nilly' especially if the exhaust ('cats') aren't modified to 'cope'. WHY would he have put a bleed valve on it but NOT fiddled with cats ? Think you're right to be cautious.... BTW. YES the cats are quite small, but TWO of them ! even ONE is sufficient for the emmisions ! ! and they stifle the flow because..... > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve W Posted June 7, 2003 Share Posted June 7, 2003 Top Cat is the short stubby one.. it's up in front of the bulhead just tucked under the 2nd cat (quite hard to get to). Lower cat is the pipe/silencer looking one... joins end of the top cat and runs/sits under the footwell beside the gearbox (sort of) you can see the lower one EASILY under the car, but need to get a torch down between the exhaust manifold area and the drivers bulkhead to see top cat. (unless you eat a lot of carrots that is:p ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandan Posted June 7, 2003 Author Share Posted June 7, 2003 I'm not sure why he's done what he's done. He actually said to me that the car HAD a turbo timer, intake and electronic boost controller but he took it all off cuz "the engine wasn't up to it". He said for all that sort of stuff you need a built engine!! He said he fitted the bleed valve as it's safer and more reliable. I'd have said exactly the opposite. It may be 1) He doesn't know what he's talking about 2) He knows exactly what he's talking about, and took the bits off for the sale I'm really trying towork out what sort of state the engine could/should/might be in after this mixture of mods. Do you think it's better in this situation if the cats have always been in place or better if they're not present. Seems to be + and - to both trains of thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminator Posted June 7, 2003 Share Posted June 7, 2003 I think he is talking bullsh1t. A turbo timer is a very advisable bit of kit on any turbo charged car, helping to keep oil and coolant flowing round the turbo’s after use. A bleed valve is a very crude boost controller and without a boost gauge there is no way of telling if you are getting boost spikes. Unless you are really set on this one it may be time to take a walk. He may have thrashed the crap out of it and taken the bits off to sell. It does not all hang together for me. Sorry I may be wrong but I would be careful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandan Posted June 8, 2003 Author Share Posted June 8, 2003 I get the feeling this bloke selling the car knows very little about it. He's said stuff about tuning routes and engine builds which don't add up. When I asked him about bits that were on the car he said something like "you know, the hks and blitz stuff, that sort of stuff" . It wasn't till I kept prying he said a turbo timer "electronic boost thingy" and i think an intake. This are the bits he took off as "they don't do the engine any good" and then he said he fitted a pair! of bleed valves! To me this sounds ludicrous and I'm not sure what to make of it. That's why I'm after someone knowledgeable to inspect or help me look over the car. In the advert it says "big bore exhaust", surely a supra enthusiast who knew their stuff wouldn't write that! sounds a bit XR3i style to me!! What do you think guys??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suprash Posted June 8, 2003 Share Posted June 8, 2003 Although in the past I thought some people are a little to hesitant, or precortious (Spellling ??? Seriously) I have to tend to agree with Steve on this. It seems as if the bloke hasnt a clue what he's saying if its "you know, all that stuff" and "boost controller thingy". Have your wits about ya matey, wouldnt a simple compression test, test exactly if its a little on the shagged side, as far as my knowledge strecthes to, these devices I think you can get for £30 I think I rememeber someone saying. Not sure if any of that is cr*p or not, but I try...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandan Posted June 8, 2003 Author Share Posted June 8, 2003 thanks ashley, I think i'll go with the attitude that he car is no good and not have my heart set on it. Then the car and the owner will have to convince me otherwise. Only one problem the car is really nice looking so this might not be quite so easy. In some ways if the bloke doesn't know what he's talking about it might not be all bad. That's surely better than some scammer trying to pull a fast one with a sh@gged out car, that he knows is knackered. Really my only worry (and i think this is the only problem) is the owner running excessive boost and boost spikes due to the bleed valve. Hopefully the ECU would ward off any detonation and then it's on to other thing like worn out turbos etc etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suprash Posted June 8, 2003 Share Posted June 8, 2003 I seriously dont want to turn you off, no one can say for sure without seeing it, but it might be a better idea to turn up in the frame of mind that your not bothered if you dont have it, that way if you dont then you just shrug your shoulders at the end of the day, if it all turns out to be sweet, then it'll be a good day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dude Posted June 8, 2003 Share Posted June 8, 2003 Heh Dudes , i think its time to wake up and smell the cofee here, do you seriously think that anyone buys a car like the Supra to drive it sensibly , you could be buying a car from a vicar but that doesnt help if the previous owner to him was a complete maniac, the point is these cars were built to be driven hard and if they have been well maintained you should not have any problems , ive just worked on a TT J-Spec that is a complete dog , the guy who owned it for numerous years is the biggest animal in a motor you have ever seen , this car will have been thrashed at the redline wherever its been (normally with a blue light behind it) and driven up and down to spain several times litterally flat out , well aside from a little smoke on start up this car is an absolute missile the handling is nice and taught and the autobox is perfect, if this car drives as well as this after the treatment its had from this guy (for a good few years) i dont think you need to worry about a few things that dont add up , take each car on its merits i would rather buy a well looked after high miler than a low mileage car that had been owned by someone with no idea , the search for the Holy Grail can be a long and fruitless one . John:flame Dev Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve W Posted June 8, 2003 Share Posted June 8, 2003 NAH Dude-aroony, I think DanDare ( sorry mate) may be worried that IF he's the sort of geeza (no downing of our 'mate' there !) who would use a Bleeder-Tee and NOT take the cats out...ie. a LOONY-TOONS, then he may be the sort of bloke who wouldn't have changed the oil every 3/5,000 miles ? ? YOU'RE RIGHT, we all (?) drive our Soops fast to one extent or another - they were made for it after all - and they CAN take it too ! It's just that (I HOPE) we would all try to use the right oil / change things in reasonable time / use S/U etc. etc. I know I tried hard to find a lower mileage Soop and preferably one which hadn't been fiddled with.... NO GUARANTEE of it being good but LESS chance of it being 'screwed'. As Ash' says.. please NEVER take OUR word for it if we're a bit cautious... just check for yourself.... FatS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adi Posted June 8, 2003 Share Posted June 8, 2003 I think Chris Wilson does a car checkover service for potential buyers.. definately worth the cost id say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandan Posted June 8, 2003 Author Share Posted June 8, 2003 thanks guys, i realise the cars are pretty sturdy and built to take plenty of stick, but as steve said it's when things go well outside toyota's intentions, things aren't so clear cut. surely if he's running high boost via the bleed valve, cats in and normal unleaded he obviously not a particularly knowledgeable chap as far as supras go. no idea about oil changes though, I didn't ask. Am i right in thinking the cambelt should have been done?-1996 car? what he has told me is that originally it was serviced at toyota, then whaen their top mech left, he took it to a specialist to have it serviced. That place is called something like Alan Jeffries Tuning in plymouth. Apparently the mechanic there was originally quite well up in Turbo Technics and the owner seems to speak fairly highly of him. The owner is very honest and forthcoming about mods etc, so it could be that he is ok but just been told some rubbish about car tuning and taken that as gospel. I've spoke to CW about looking over the car but I'd have to get it to Shropshire, don't think the owner will be too keen on that. I'll have to get a price of CW to come to the car...if he can Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mos Posted June 8, 2003 Share Posted June 8, 2003 That tuner you talk about had my car on the rollers and had a serious power loss, they didnt seem at all bothered about helping me find the problem. They told me to it was knock sensors and it wasnt, the sensors had nothing to do with it. I left that tuners with a "im not going there again attitude". As you say the seller may have been given some gash dits about car tuning but another thing has he kept all receipts and is he passionate about the car. A commpresion test would really help so if you can get a tester and do a test then it will help give you some idea. Take a look at mkiv.com and listen to the turbo death whisle to give you some idea. Basically if it feels wrong it probably is but it would be a shame to walk away from something that just might be o.k.. Just a question for you turbo guys wouldnt the fuel cut prevent boosting in excess or would the t piece override it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandan Posted June 8, 2003 Author Share Posted June 8, 2003 i never thought about the fuel cut, what would that limit the boost to, assuming there has been no overide of the fuel cutting. What boost does the fuel cut come in and what is the standard boost pressure on a jap car? Are the bosst pressures that are talked about, at the turbo exits or at the plenum- there must be a pressure drop across the intercooler, throttle etc Can anyone advice me where to look to see if a fuel cut defencer or something similar has been installed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve W Posted June 8, 2003 Share Posted June 8, 2003 DEAD RIGHT mos ! !..... DOH ! ! unless he's used a Defencer then, yes, it would/should 'cut' at @ 13/14 psi any way (I think)..... Hard to see Dan, it's down by the ECU under the passenger carpet under a plastic cover, you hack into the wire telling the ECU the true boost and feed it a signal which 'max's lower down = it doesn't cut.... usually set a higher limit of ~18/20 as a just-in-case. AGAIN, why would he fit a Bleeder if he HASN'T bypassed the Fuel Cut ? ? Not a lot of point......AT ALL ! ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandan Posted June 8, 2003 Author Share Posted June 8, 2003 is the ecu on the underside of the dash in the footwell, or is it vertical on one side? can anyone describe to me where to look for signs of spliced wires in case a fuel cut has been removed? i'm sure i read somewhere about a "free fuel cut" which was basically a quick and easy bodge. anyone know anything about this? glad i posted something about this now, the feedback is great. In a way i'm feeling more confident but also more apprehensive about the car!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandan Posted June 8, 2003 Author Share Posted June 8, 2003 can anybody tell me what the stock jap boost is? i have searched and can't find anything (well i did a while ago, but can't remember where!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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