whats with all the sympathy

[Kopite]

I think they're scum for what they did but as CJ and the others said, it's still tragic and i do feel sorry for them and they're parents. If someone nicked my supra then i'd wanna batter them obviously but i just hope the law would catch up to them and punish them accordingly. Certainly wouldn't want them dying etc. Their parents (even if they're nice people or chav gits themselves) will be going through hell right now.

I certainly hope the police don't cop any flack for it though! They're damned if they do and damned if they don't today by the looks of it!

[Tannhauser]

total agreement

also i would gladly beat them into pulp, this is the problem with todays society, they no doubt needed a good clip round the ear(which they missed) when they were younger to set them on the straight and narrow, just like i got

 

Don't follow the logic in this. You're saying that they're not 'on the straight and narrow' because they didn't get a clip round the ear. So, in other words, their behaviour is the result of their upbringing. And no one chooses their upbringing, right? So, therefore, according to you, it's not their fault they are as they are. Why, then, would you want to beat someone to a pulp for something that is not their fault?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.....well, I'm just yanking your chain. Sort of. Rest of comments aren't addressed specifically to you, but generally.

 

Did they deserve it? Of course it's the instinct to say 'yes', but to me, it doesn't stand up to analysis.

 

Why did they steal the car? Because they chose to, as Ian says. OK, but why did they choose to; where do our decisions came from? We make decisions according to our value system: for them, gaining status from their idiot mates is more important than the law of the land. Where does this value system come from? Here's where it gets interesting. Is it:

 

(a) they have a 'chav' gene?

(b) they have learned these values from others?

 

To be honest, (a) is pretty ludicrous. It's (b) all the way, despite what some incredibly naive geneticists say. But either way, it means that in most of the important ways, you aren't in charge of how you turn out. You don't choose what you absorb from your early environment, any more than a dog chooses to learn one sort of tricks rather than another. We learn what we are exposed to, and to repeat the behaviours we were rewarded for, and to avoid what we are punished for. So we can argue back and forth about whether their parents weren't tough enough, or society is too soft, or that they haven't had enough positive encouragement, or whatever. Point is that we don't choose our own natures, to a large extent, we have them thrust upon us.

 

This doesn't mean prisoners should be coddled, kids shouldn't be smacked, blah, blah blah - the question isn't how to deal with them but about culpability.

 

So, to my mind, we ought to quit congratulating ourselves on what upstanding citizens we turned out to be and think on the phrase "there but for the grace of God go I" Some people have commented on the theme of ' how would you feel if it was your car?' Another question might be 'how would you feel if it was your son driving?' That they deserved to die for it?

 

Cliff

[uk-rich]

you aren't in charge of how you turn out. You don't choose what you absorb from your early environment,

 

 

however, i suggest they had an idea that they shouldn't have been doing what they were doing, but if they didn't have the accident i wonder what would have been done ?

 

maybe a weeks holiday somewhere for "problem or repeat offenders" financed ny the tax payers

 

maybe my first comments were a little strong, but it seems that they are shared by many

[Tannhauser]

you aren't in charge of how you turn out. You don't choose what you absorb from your early environment,

 

 

however, i suggest they had an idea that they shouldn't have been doing what they were doing, but if they didn't have the accident i wonder what would have been done ?

 

maybe a weeks holiday somewhere for "problem or repeat offenders" financed ny the tax payers

 

maybe my first comments were a little strong, but it seems that they are shared by many

 

Even though I was questioning your logic, I understand what you're saying. My other half's boy - a hard-working, decent lad - had his p&j written off by a drunk, uninsured chav driver. He'd only had it for two weeks. And of course, I was mad about it. But if as a society, we are serious about reducing this type of behaviour, I think we have to understand why these people turn out to be such louts.

 

It's unlikely that they would have been sent on a week's holiday. An interesting question, for another occasion, might be: "If it was proven that sending young offenders on holiday really reduced re-offending rates, should we do it?" (I've no idea whether it 'works' or doesn't: I suspect it doesn't but I dobn't know)

 

Cliff.

[tbourner]

Jeez this is getting deep.

 

Well I tend to have strong views about everything, and normally end up arguing about it on here (normally with Cliff, why do you always have to come out with the most intelligent, well thought out retorts you git!! ). I tend to be of the opinion that death is a good thing (not like that before you start!! I mean I see the good in everything), obivously I'd rather not have 'nasty' deaths in the world; the death of a cancer patient - and more importantly the time up until the actual passing of the individual - is possibly the worst experience for a family, but a few 'chavs' running from the police is a different matter.

 

No it's not the same as speeding, for the simple fact that if the lights came on behind any of us, even at 170mph, I'd hope that 99% or more of us would pull over and take the flack for it. THAT defines a good citizen, whether it be upbringing or a 'chav gene' that made us like it or not.

[Scoboblio]

Ian I agree with you completely. I've seen people who went to the same schools as me and had nearly the same upbringing turn into nothing more than a boil on the arse of humanity. At some point in our lives we've all been faced with temptation and turned away from it - IMO upbringing is NOT an excuse for stealing a car (and yes, that includes the passengers if they knew it was stolen).

 

And I'm suprised that no-one's asked the obvious.... how the hell did a metro with five people in it get up to 100mph?

 

Was the police car pushing it down the road?

[outatime]

The only good I can see coming out of an incident like this is that someone else might think twice before doing a similar thing.

 

Its not really the same , but there's a group of teenagers around here who drive like they are invincible, one by one they are crashing and taking others with them. Last week there was a head on and an innocent party ended up with no legs.

 

Last saturday night one of them rolled their car in the center of a village. No one was hurt, but the 17 yr old girl who rolled was so pissed she couldn't even stand. She tried to kill herself in jail. At work on monday, some are saying 'shame she didn't go through with it', others 'hopefully she'll learn from it'.

 

The point CJ made is right, 99% of us drive too fast - I do. It would be too easy for me to come tearing round a corner, hit a broken down car or a tractor and for people to say I deserved what was coming to me.

 

I do consider getting rid of my Supra for this reason - it leads me to drive like a twat on occasion. That and all the chavs that are buying them nowadays.

[JohnA]

...I do consider getting rid of my Supra for this reason - it leads me to drive like a twat on occasion. That and all the chavs that are buying them nowadays.

Funnily enough the thought has crossed my mind as well.

The supra makes me go full throttle more often than not, and getting to140+ on public roads here can get you into serious trouble with the law.

Otherwise it doesn't feel fast dammit

 

A stiff sentence would be quite a stupid thing to aspire to, a virgin licence is no defence, I should know better than push my luck for no good reason.

[tbourner]

I like to think I drive sensibly though, I speed yes, but I don't think I could be classed in the same league as these kids.

 

For example, last night on the way home, I showed off to a Golf Driver - I got the distinct impression he didn't know what the car was capable of, seemed as though he thought I was just another chav with a big exhaust, so I floored it in 3rd and 4th. He came past with a 'respect' look on his face. This was on a straight piece of dual carriageway, just after some lights, no other cars, dry road. Later that evening after it had rained there was a BMW with fog lights on, came screaming up behind me just before a series of S-bends, I kept to 40, slowed down for the bends, he overtook on the next straight - to me it was not worth the various risks involved to prove something.

 

Anyway, what I'm saying is there is a huge difference between this and the 'chav's that crashed, they wouldn't think twice about booting it away form the BM and 'showing him what's what'. Whereas I pick and choose the times according to situation.

 

 

Also, I drive a hell of a lot slower in the Supe than in my other car!!!

[outatime]

I agree, there is a time and a place. However there are too many variables that are outside my control when driving in what could be construed as a careless way. All it takes is a car stopped in the wrong place, or a cat running on to the road.

 

Any accident involving a 'sports' car and a youngish person will generally be blamed on the driver of said sports car, whether you were taking every care possible or not. Its not a part of Supra ownership I like.

 

Having a car like a Supra means you are perceived in a certain way. In my other car (boring estate), I could get away with a lot more in terms of looney driving even though my car is far less capable of handling and stopping effectively.

[Tannhauser]

Ian I agree with you completely. I've seen people who went to the same schools as me and had nearly the same upbringing turn into nothing more than a boil on the arse of humanity.

 

Ditto. I grew up in a pretty unpleasant town and went to school with plenty of teenage villains. But something made me choose something different. And I ask again, where does that choice come from? What determines what we choose?

 

At some point in our lives we've all been faced with temptation and turned away from it - IMO upbringing is NOT an excuse for stealing a car (and yes, that includes the passengers if they knew it was stolen).

 

Excuse or explanation? It's a funny thing that we use rules of science to apply to everything but human behaviour. For example, if we say 'why did the piston melt?', then the explanation might be 'because the afr was incorrect'. We say, 'Why did the water boil?' and we can explain that by referring to supplying energy, overcoming molecular forces and so on.

 

But when it comes to humans, we apply a separate set of rules. In answering the question 'Where does the behaviour come from?' the same rules we use for everything else are rejected. We don't want to investigate cause and effect anymore. An explanation is seen as an excuse.

 

It's an interesting thread for me, because people on here have predominantly technical backgrounds (IT, car enthusiasts, engineers, etc) that use technology and science all day long. But they seem unwilling to cast aside the idea of human choice, which is really the idea that we are more than just bags of neurons performing conditioned reflexes. Which is a fundamentally religious idea, I think.

 

Yours philosophically

 

Cliff

[tbourner]

See my explanation in the ghosts thread, there IS more to a human than our known physical elements, but that doesn't mean it cannot be explained (but not proven) by science. Unfortunately we are then delving into the seldom accepted realm of multi-dimensional space and m-theory multiverses!!

 

Whoa this thread is really going off on a tangent now!!