CJ Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 The death of the car thieves was not 'punishment' It was a direct result of their actions. Their parents should have spent more time teaching the 'kids' how to behave, rather than cry over spilled milk now... And do you honestly believe that every young person who commits a criminal act is the product of a poor upbringing? I have known several people who have spent time in prison for a multitude of different offences whose background and parenting have been no different to mine. Again the problem with this thread isn't that we all would want justice, it is the seeming glorification of these peoples deaths that disturbs me. As I said, we are all someones daughter and son eh? To condone death as a suitable punishment for car theft is a little OTT in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 And do you honestly believe that every young person who commits a criminal act is the product of a poor upbringing? . Indifferent parenting doesn't help, does it? To condone death as a suitable punishment for car theft is a little OTT in my opinion. Death is unsuitable punishment for anything, because there is no "undo" and no way to see if it worked as a punishment (offender being dead and all...) Others do not learn their lesson either, because they believe it won't happen to them, so life goes on as before. These people were theives, probably running away from the Police, so they suffered the consequences of their actions. As for the 'innocent' passengers, they could have chosen NOT to get in a stolen car, or even demand that they get off once it was clear that things were dodgy. This sort of behaviour buys you a good set of lashes in Singapore, and it certainly doesn't happen as often as here. It's not black-and-white, but how long can we keep shifting the blame for this sort of behaviour? It's not the 'kids' fault, because they are young and innocent It's not the parents' fault because they can't be everywhere It's not the State's fault because we live in a 'free' society Maybe it is the fault of the person who owned the car in the first place --- had he been using public transport there would not have been a stolen car in the first place. How about that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 You have managed to quote the last statement completely out of context. My point was, and still is, that the first post was glorifying the fact that the thieves had died and that, in my opinion is not justified. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbourner Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 REALLY?? May be area dependant then, my mate certainly gets called off in pursuits down here if it goes over a certain speed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markrzs Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 I hope the next lot take a double decker bus, fill it full of their dodgy car stealing friends and do the same, it's better than spending millions of pounds putting them through a justice system that is incapable of imposing a sentence harsh enough to put anyone off in the future. Anyone who says this is a tragic event would be reacting in a totally different way if it was their car that had been taken. The Police should be allowed to force these people into walls, with that threat hanging around maybe it would put people off in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrickTT Posted October 31, 2005 Author Share Posted October 31, 2005 To condone death as a suitable punishment for car theft is a little OTT in my opinion. I disagree It doesn't say in the report what happened to the cyclist, but when a car hits a bike (presumably at speed) the cyclist may well end up killed. Or a pedestrian. Or your mum/dad/wife/children. The problem is society seems to be unable to control these type of people. They never contribute anything to the community, just destroy - they are out for what they can get without giving a damm about the consequenses and i still believe we are better off without them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 I disagree It doesn't say in the report what happened to the cyclist, but when a car hits a bike (presumably at speed) the cyclist may well end up killed. Or a pedestrian. Or your mum/dad/wife/children. The problem is society seems to be unable to control these type of people. They never contribute anything to the community, just destroy - they are out for what they can get without giving a damm about the consequenses and i still believe we are better off without them. Unfortunately, your first post did not just condone a fatal punishment, it glorified it. And that, in my opinion, is wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 I have just been sitting here thinking about this "vigalante" type attitude that a lot of you are displaying. You are saying that anyone who steals a car and then dies as a result of taking it deserves all they get and you have no sympathy at all. Is this because they are criminals and are endangering lives by their actions or is it more deep seated than that and you want them exterminated as they are low class Chav scum? I ask as it would be interesting to see what your reaction would be to our own criminal activity. When we break the speed limit (I do it daily) we endanger lives. If any of us were involved in a fatal accident would you have the same attitude i.e. Good, I am glad they are dead? If not, why not? We would have been involved in criminal activity and endangering lives but I suspect the fact that we live in nice houses and drive nice cars would mean that the "I am glad they are dead" attitude would not surface. Now, please do not think I am condoning the activity of any person involved in car crime. I hate them as much as the next man but do i want to see them die in a fatal accident? Do I want to revel in their misfirtune? No, I most certainly do not. Sorry for the long post - rant over!l Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim_supra Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 hmmm tricky one, I don't believe that they all deserved to die as a result of what these people did, and i firmly believe that the passengers do not hold anywhere near as much responsibility as the driver. The Passengers were aware of what they were doing, and the penalties for being caught in a stolen car. for that they were extremely wrong, but by no means deserved to die. The driver of the car however decided that when he saw the police behind him, would not stop and face up to what he had done. He decided that he would take responsibility for his life and the lives of the other people in the car, and risked killing other road users and pedestrians by trying to evade the police. For his actions, I feel no sympathy for his death. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 CJ, if they were to steal your car and then promptly smack it on a wall, I'd like to see you taking flowers to the hospital and paying their hospital bills, because "hey, they're human beings after all" I see where you're coming from, but criminal activity is not funny when you're the victim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uk-rich Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 fuck'em Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 CJ, if they were to steal your car and then promptly smack it on a wall, I'd like to see you taking flowers to the hospital and paying their hospital bills, because "hey, they're human beings after all" I see where you're coming from, but criminal activity is not funny when you're the victim. Again you are putting your own spin on what I said. If you care to read my earlier posts you would see that I said that i would want revenge for a crime commited against me. Does that sound like someone who would take flowers to the hospital? My argument still is (although you manage to ignore it every time you post) is that there can be no justification for reveling in anyones death due to them stealing a car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 fuck'em And thats exactly the type of post that makes me wonder if this board is slowly being taken over by the Chav element we regularly castigate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 ... i would want revenge for a crime commited against me. ..... Seeking revenge is a human reaction. But those of us who know better, realise that what goes round comes round, don't we? there can be no justification for reveling in anyones death due to them stealing a car. Failing to feel sympathy is not the same as reveling, is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 Seeking revenge is a human reaction. But those of us who know better, realise that what goes round comes round, don't we? Failing to feel sympathy is not the same as reveling, is it? Read the first post again and tell me that isn't reveling in the deaths of the driver and the passengers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Flash Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 I ask as it would be interesting to see what your reaction would be to our own criminal activity. When we break the speed limit (I do it daily) we endanger lives. If any of us were involved in a fatal accident would you have the same attitude i.e. Good, I am glad they are dead? If not, why not? We would have been involved in criminal activity and endangering lives but I suspect the fact that we live in nice houses and drive nice cars would mean that the "I am glad they are dead" attitude would not surface. A very good point made here! Where do the boundaries lie? A quote I heard which made it interesting was from the guy who owned the wall / garden - he heard no screeching of brakes at all! So whatever the speed was - they didn't slow down !!! I only hope the police involved do not end up being punished. Seeing the damaged lifeless bodies must be hard enough to live with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supra-lad Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 I ask as it would be interesting to see what your reaction would be to our own criminal activity. When we break the speed limit (I do it daily) we endanger lives. If any of us were involved in a fatal accident would you have the same attitude i.e. Good, I am glad they are dead? If not, why not? We would have been involved in criminal activity and endangering lives but I suspect the fact that we live in nice houses and drive nice cars would mean that the "I am glad they are dead" attitude would not surface. yep, I agree. driving at ridiculous speeds is just as dangerous, maybe even more so, than this incident, so it is very harsh to say that you are glad they are dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tannhauser Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 Anyone who says this is a tragic event would be reacting in a totally different way if it was their car that had been taken. That's making an enormous extrapolation and I think you're wrong to speak for everyone. If it was my car, I'm pretty sure I'd say it was a tragic event. I would think it was their own stupid fault, and I'd be pissed that the car was gone, of course. But it's just a car and it's not to be measured against a human life - even the meanest, dumbest one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tannhauser Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 Just another case of the media putting thoughts into the minds of the people. Guarantee the majority of the public will 'adopt' the idea that the police acted badly or did something wrong, purely because they read it in the paper. Forget nanny britain this is sheep britain. Equally, it could be argued that the attitude you (and others) have expressed is also a result of media and political influences. A lot of people on here grew up under a long-standing Conservative government, which inevitably created a different value system to the generation before. Beliefs such as 'society is better off without them', 'they chose to be like that' are at the right-hand side of the political spectrum. Or, if you don't buy that, the views you express will be trotted out in The Sun and The Mail tomorrow. But you wouldn't see yourself as a sheep, now would you? Just because a group of people adopt an idea, it doesn't mean they have been 'brainwashed' into it. Cliff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 The loss of a car thief and his happy-to-go-along pals won't keep me up at night. I don't care if it's a chav, an organised chop shop agent, or Nicholas Cage trying to save his brother. Sorry if that's not carebear enough for some, apologies if it's not harsh enough for others... You can't accidently steal a car, like you can't accidently burgle a house. It's a premeditated action that says "damn the consequences to the person who owns this", so I say "I shall not care if bad things happen to you because of your antisocial actions". Comparing premeditated car theft to speeding is horseshit though, I mean come on. If you really thought you were endangering lives you'd sell the bloody car and get a diesely mondeo and do 55 everywhere. And join BRAKE. May as well compare drifting over the speed limit to drifting a knife between someone's ribs... I've always said that if some fucker nicks my car I hope it dies and takes them with it. The only honourable death for a car I think. But that's just my car and my opinion Misquote away, folks -Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uk-rich Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 total agreement also i would gladly beat them into pulp, this is the problem with todays society, they no doubt needed a good clip round the ear(which they missed) when they were younger to set them on the straight and narrow, just like i got Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 Well put Ian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 The loss of a car thief and his happy-to-go-along pals won't keep me up at night. I don't care if it's a chav, an organised chop shop agent, or Nicholas Cage trying to save his brother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 No tears then for the car thief's lost youth (and innocence, lol...) Not from me, either. Sorry. I wish I were a higher being, a Budha, a monk or something, who can be above all this pettiness and see the good inside the antisocial scumbags (and their families). ...But I'm not. A car is just a bunch of metal, yes, and a human life cannot be equal to an inanimate object. Yes. But a car can also be used as a lethal weapon, to maim innocent bystanders/passengers/motorists. There is enough mindless violence, vandalism and antisocial behavour in this country, and I'm not gonna lose sleep if a few thieves kill themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrickTT Posted October 31, 2005 Author Share Posted October 31, 2005 Good lord. Certainly stirred up a hornets nest with this one didn't I. CJ, I'm not reveling in or glorifying their death. I was just pointing out that a respected sunday paper (The Times - not known for its liberal views) and the BBC are treating the death of these people like its something we should all be sorry about and me, and most of the other people who've posted on this thread all seem to think its no great loss. I can see your argument for the punishment not fitting the crime but at the end of the day its better they all die than get a derisory sentence in court, then sue the police for somehow "causing" the accident. As I said earlier, next time they could hit something (someone) more important than a garden wall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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