Chris Wilson Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 Engines are starting to die... Why? I THINK I have the answer, I have tested a few older cars recently and been horrified that now the weather is warmer inlet air temps on some of them are through the roof. Common denominator? KNACKERED INTERCOOLERS. I tooled up to make stock replacement ones with more efficient cores but have had very little interest. If people have a peer at their IC which is in the RH (drivers side) duct at the side of the radiator grill they SHOULD see perfect finning on the tubes that carry the air through it, but now the car is getting a bit older many have fins crumbling away to the touch and even totally corroded away leaving the naked tubes in patches. The presence of intact and original thickness fins, properly and fully bonded to the tubes, is VITAL to whether the IC works properly or not. A similar cause, but of the engine coolant running hot, is the condition of the water rad fins, but this is more applicable to the MKIII Supra which had a marginal capacity rad as new. Nonetheless the water rads are now failing or in their twilight days. I now stock rads for all but the VVTi models, by the way. High inlet air temps give high combustion chamber temps which can cause detonation, killing plugs, pistons, bores, head gaskets and exhaust valves. All are EXPENSIVE to fix and avoidable with a stitch in time attitude. This idea of mine is still at the theory stage, but a modded car MUST have a fully functional IC to be remotely safe, especially now outside air temps are hopefully on the up. Air temps on cars with knackered IC's are up 30 degrees or more under none stock boost, the hotter the weather the worse this will get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminator Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 Chris what would be the sort of temps we should get, at say the IC side of the throttle body, with a good IC and what temps did you get with yours? At what boost pressure and ambient temp did you measure? What sort of difference is there in EGT's between good and knackered IC's? Just want to know what to look for as I have noticed my stock IC is not as looking good as it was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted May 29, 2003 Author Share Posted May 29, 2003 From memory with 60 degree F outside ambient temp and a car with boost at 1.2 bar, under full load, with a perfect stock IC I saw around 48 degrees C air at the plenum. Same boost, different car, knackered IC, similar ambient temps the air at the plenum was 68C, very dangerous. My IC, same boost, same ambient showed around 38 / 40 at the plenum. I managed to get my Skyline to run 30C , but only with a fully ducted big FMIC AND water injection. WI on the Supra usually drops air temps another 4/5 degrees C if properly set up and jetted. WI is NOT a crutch for a knackered IC though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 Chris - You have PM mate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 Chris, I bow to your superior technical knowledge and in my own amateurish way I said roughly the same on another thread. Plan your mods in advance, more power needs more cooling, stopping and fueling. It makes sense then to upgrade brakes, cooling and fueling BEFORE adding the extra power. Or at the very least make sure that the exisiting setup will cope with the power plus a safety factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith C Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 Grumble. More expense. How much for a replacement IC Chris, and is it something that I can fit at home? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith C Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 Right, just had a word with Chris, and he says the IC's are £528 including VAT and postage. That's half the price Toyota want for a new one, cheaper than one of the bit Blitz/HKS/etc jobbies, and best of all does not need to be declared to insurance (it counts as an OE replacement part). The problem is that Chris needs a minimum of 4 orders before he can get them made up. I'm one, just need three others. JB? I know your car has a 20-a-day habit and could do with a healthier lifestyle. Anyone else? I'm going to have to turn down my boost somewhat until I get this fitted, as I absolutely *cannot* risk a failure in the summer months, so the faster we get an order together, the faster I can go faster again Chris says fitting should be straightforward if you want to do yourself, nothing more than fiddly at worst. So - come on, roll up roll up, get me back in the land of boost Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 Yeah, good advert Chris. How much are they? I think the lack of interest may be that if people are going to spend on an IC they would get a big FMIC. With all due respect I'm not sure how yours compares with the big FMIC from HKS and Blitz etc as I don't know enough about the subject. As an ill disciplined money spender like me I would find it easier to justify to myself paying for an upgrade (Big FMIC) rather than a like for like (small SMIC). Not that your IC is just a like for like as I have a feeling it would be better than the stock one. If we had some proven test results it may sway even more people to buy them who normally wouldn't. Don't get me wrong I am interested as replacing an IC that has done 80,000 miles sounds like a good move if the price is right. Cheers Justin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 Add me to the waiting list ... FMIC means cutting up my Veilside nose and with that nose I get really big airflow straight into the SMIC anyway so for 1/2 the price of a Blitz etc I'm deffinately up for one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith C Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 Originally posted by Justin Yeah, good advert Chris. How much are they? I think the lack of interest may be that if people are going to spend on an IC they would get a big FMIC. With all due respect I'm not sure how yours compares with the big FMIC from HKS and Blitz etc as I don't know enough about the subject. As an ill disciplined money spender like me I would find it easier to justify to myself paying for an upgrade (Big FMIC) rather than a like for like (small SMIC). Not that your IC is just a like for like as I have a feeling it would be better than the stock one. If we had some proven test results it may sway even more people to buy them who normally wouldn't. Don't get me wrong I am interested as replacing an IC that has done 80,000 miles sounds like a good move if the price is right. Cheers Justin Answering for Chris here (as I asked him the exact same questions). A big FMIC has two main drawbacks: 1) By slowing/blocking airflow to the water rad, it can increase water temps around the engine. Bad. This really requires an upgraded water rad to sort, which is obviously more expense. 2) To get proper use out of a big FMIC requires it to be properly ducted etc, otherwise half the air goes round the fmic, rather than through. In addition, on a stock bumper about a third or so of a big FMIC can be covered by bits of bumper, meaning you either have to get a replacement bumper, or chop up the stock one, etc etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooter Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 Chris, how long would it be before you got them after an order? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 I was thinking about ducting my IC and putting in some sort of cold air intake, but if you get a denser air charge, doesn't that upset your AFR? More air in a denser charge, but how does the fuelling get increased to compensate? -Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpie Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 Originally posted by Keith C In addition, on a stock bumper about a third or so of a big FMIC can be covered by bits of bumper, meaning you either have to get a replacement bumper, or chop up the stock one, etc etc. What do you think ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith C Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 Dunno how it works, but I imagine it does, otherwise your fuelling would go to pot everytime it snowed or got sunny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branners Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 I have the old SMIC from my import in my shed at home, thats going on in place of the amazing fag smoking IC (the fins are so bad that it collects fag buts and small children as I drive along), so I wont be going for an uprated one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith C Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 Originally posted by Scooter Chris, how long would it be before you got them after an order? About 4-5 weeks he told me, as he'll have to get them made up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 So are we saying that a SMIC is better than a FMIC for a MKIV? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith C Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 No - a properly ducted, exposed and installed FMIC will be better than an SMIC every day of the week. What Chris' SMIC allows is a 'plug and play' straight swap with no need to mess about, duct, chop, upgrade other bits, etc. A full FMIC requires more cost and work than just buying the unit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 Well put Keith. Is the stock SMIC a part that Toyota say to replace after so many miles/years? Or is it just a case of - change it when it looks knackered. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam W Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 Ian - the inlet charge temperature is measured and the fuel maps altered accordingly by the ECU I believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 Erm...Corky Bell says you don't have to chop a bigger opening for an FMIC. As long as it is more than a 1/4 the size of the FMIC's frontal area then you should get adequate flow...cause you only need enough air to go through the gaps in the FMIC...and with proper ducting the fact the direct flow doesn't hit is full on doesn't matter as the whole area is pressurised. Well that's my understanding...of Corky Bell's book Maximum boost. I agree though with the rest....any car with an 8 or more yr old IC is waiting for disaster. Gulp. Why can I feel another loan coming on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dude Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 I was worried about the inlet temp in my car as i have fitted my own FMIC and not tested it yet so i installed a temp probe in the inlet and set off to test the temp as i thought if i had high inlet temps this could have accounted for my late 2nd turbo due to a temp sensor in the inlet , i have not tried a long blast a wide open throttle but up and down a long country road on and off boost i saw no more than 24 degrees C this was holding the trans in 3rd (auto) and loading the engine up , this was also yesterday which was a very warm day , the temps will rise on a WOT run down a bypass but all in all i am very pleased with the results , another member of this bbs encouraged me to check out the IC and said that his FMIC run with a big single keeps temps down to about 35 and no more than 40 degrees , the firm i used to make my FMIC also supplies IC's to jaguar / mercedes / lotus and a formula 1 team , if anyone is thinking of going a stage on from CW's standard mount then give myself or Paul E a mail for a run down and price but be aware of the size hole in the nose my IC sits behind it is a lot larger than standard , you can see it in my avatar. John :flame Dev Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonball Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 Checked my SMIC last week - horrified to find the fins are just disintegrating and fall apart as I touch them Chris' SMIC value looks great - and for all those looking for an alternative FMIC to the cheapest HKS 'S' type (£1350 approx) then Dudes is approx £925.00 to include the polished piping - yes the shiny bits guys! Core is superb and I'd say equivalent to a type 'R' in size / quality So mines about to get a newy too - and if I can afford a new rad to go with it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dude Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 'and if I can afford a new rad to go with it!' can do those as well , uprated core / larger tanks whatever you want John:flame Dev Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dude Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 Originally posted by Wolf Add me to the waiting list ... FMIC means cutting up my Veilside nose and with that nose I get really big airflow straight into the SMIC anyway so for 1/2 the price of a Blitz etc I'm deffinately up for one Wolf , why would you have to 'cut' your veilside nose , ive seen loads of FMIC's fitted with veilsides which are normally cut when fitted , if not a very simple procedure . John:flame Dev Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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