New member help appreciated.

[MrMattyMc]

Hi guys hope you all are well, new member here from Newcastle I’m looking at buying a Supra in February just in middle of moving some properties into a limited company first and pay the dreaded tax. 

I’m looking at getting a low as possible mileage import gte for between 30-40k hopefully under 40000 miles obviously an auto.

I’m thinking of it as a long term project/investment as I’m hoping unlike most project cars the money I put into it I will get back (or put back to standard and sell the bits) as the values are obviously going up.

My plans are to take it to around 700bhp with borg warner 66mm twin scroll single turbo and syvecs s7plus ecu along with a load of goodies within first few months, I was a mechanic for 10 years so wanting to do all myself except the mapping part (I have jm-imports on my doorstep so I’ll get them to do the mapping)

Hoping  to leave internals for now, I know the auto box won’t take that power so was wanting to keep it at 500-550bhp and if the box goes I’ll just change to a v160/161 (if I can source one) but was hoping that won’t happen too quick, I will be doing barely a couple hundred miles a month as I work crazy hours and have a couple of other cars to play with.  
 

Main question being am I doing things back to front modifying the engine then changing the gearbox? 

Will import factory engine twin turbos autos keep going up in value? 

Do you guys think getting the car mint with all above will add what Im going to put in if I come to sell in 2/3 years?

Im guessing I’ll put about 30k into mods (including manual gearbox) and around 35k into buying car. 

Any other input is welcome thanks. 

[rider]

It would be more cost effective to buy an already singled Supra than buy a stock unit to modify. The days when modifications enhanced the value of a Mk4 Supra are quite a few years behind us now. Your question asking will values continue to rise, well that is unlikely to carry on indefinitely. Some see the plateau in prices happening in a very few years time. Other think the bull market will carry on for a while yet. But, the bull market has been in stock cars for the last in particular 5 years and as they become more scarce, with ones being written off or modified then that will help eke out the bull run a bit longer.

If you have £40k to spend on a TT Auto and presumably around £10k on mods your may as well go for a BPU TT6 if you are in anyway looking at a purchase as an investment. The power won't be much different to what you are seeking and its going to be a much more secure investment over the medium terms. Supra inflation is running at 30% presently and prices have doubled in the last 4 years with plenty more left to give seeing the UK is now the cheapest market in the World for these cars.

Most sane people would now go for a BMW M3 6 speed Getrag box instead of seeking out a V160/V161. These are readily available and about a sixth of the price. As I mentioned though, modding away from the VIN plate is and has never been a wise investment in classic car future proofing and value enhancement outside of a few safety upgrades like with brake mods.

As a caveat, I have always been in favour of stock as a durable setup and there have been many very heated debates on this forum over the years on the subject of stock versus mods. Go check some of those out from around 10 years ago and you'll probably garner from those that it can be a contentious subject. Less so these days as everyone, even die hard modders, can see stock prices have not only closed the gap on modded cars but they are now pretty much pulling away. There was a time at low price point Supra around 15 years ago when a modded single turbo car would be worth up to three times the value a stock car, no longer.

Edited January 2, 2022 by rider (see edit history)

[MrMattyMc]

Thanks for the in-depth response rider it’s greatly appreciated. 

40k was going to be max budget for an absolute minter to be honest that would be the stretch for the car for now unless I waited till summer and might be able to stretch to 50.  I was just going to do the mods over several months as I say I’ll barely be doing any miles. I’ve just got a feeling the market is going to go even more crazy this year so wanted to get something next month or two and I think a tt auto would be my best bet with my budget but you’re right for investment purposes a tt6 would make sense just honestly don’t think I could stretch to one in current times. 

The reason I wanted a standard one to modify, my thoughts were I could put my own stamp on it and again when it came to sell in years to come put back to standard and sell bits? 
If I was going to change gearbox I would get 160/161 tbh to try keep oem as possible again for above paragraph reasons otherwise would possibly get dct from whifbitz or t56 from Joel.
 

Would most people (apart from on supra forums and people in the know) really know a factory tt auto isn’t a tt6 when I came to sell if I converted to a V160?

 

Would it just be on the v5 and or vin plate as an automatic? (I’ve never looked)    

Not trying to con anyone here by the way just  wondering  

 

[rider]

I personally wouldn't spend £50k on any car without doing thorough research, I'm looking at  possibly buying a Austin Healey 3000 and before ditching £60k I'm doing all the due diligence as you have RHD converted LHD cars or replicas made in South Africa to look out for. Its a potential minefield buying classic cars. Having said that, I'm sure it'd be possible to buy a NA Auto Supra for £15k somewhere and slap in  an Aristo engine and BMW box and convince someone its a real deal bargain £50k TT6. On any sold as seen older car its condition and verifiable history that counts and not many Supras come with both which is one reason why the trade and auctions are the price setting drivers in Supra World as that route offers the buyer some security of purchase with a legal requirement to be as described and fit for purpose.

If you are new to Supra World you would do worse than talk to honest traders and there are plenty of thread again where the good ones and the not so good ones are discussed. The good thing about this forum is there is all the knowledge on Supras you could ever want or need accessible via the search button. I recently posted up an off site link to a very good buyers guide which is a good place to start for any new buyer.

 

[Mike2JZ]

Obviously a low mileage (10,000km or less) stock car is the holy grail and will always command the most resale value, but at this point these types of cars talking maybe 2-3% of the overall worldwide Supra market. 

I have seen plenty of fairly stock-ish Supra's come through the workshop that for lack of a better word are just tired. We are almost hitting the 30 year mark for some of the early models, and its starting to show. Although on paper the stock cars might be more desirable and may even sell for more to the uninitiated, its not uncommon for some of these examples to need a lot of restoration work to bring them back to the standard they should be at, especially if they have been neglected. Common areas that need attention is the engine & gearbox, seals & rubbers, suspension & chassis, paint and odd bits and pieces with regards to interior and wiring. I can guarentee that if you bring me an "alright" stock supra thats been driven rather than stored for 20 years, I can find at least 30k to spend on restoring it without any type of modification work. Recently I saw a Supra that had been "maintained" by Toyota UK for its whole life and it was a shame to see the state it was in, completely letdown by the dealerships! But on paper, I'm sure most sellers/buyers would wet themselves over such a maintanance history. 

Although not majority, there are quite a few very tastlefully modified Supra's in the UK that I know of, that got a full restoration as a part of their modification package. So whilst being able to boast a huge power figure, they are also in tip top condition with regards to the rest of the car. For me, these types of cars are worth every penny and can stll command eye watering prices. There are a few out there that I would take over a stock car that isnt mint, regardless of what the market price might dictate. 

On average I think most Supra's regardless of modifications fall into the category of being mostly working, fairly solid cars but all with their own qwerks and age related issues. A lot of the issues I see are mainly from DIY'ers doing their own work that then cause other issues that they choose to ignore or are ignorant to the issue. Luckily these cars were engineered to be fairly stout from the factory. There is also a shift happening currently between older Supra owners who bought their cars for 5-10k back in the good days and new owners that are paying 40K+ to join the game. The price of restorations are getting more expensive as parts are harder to source and in some cases is pricing out the older owners. It wont be long before a good example thats been mostly restored to a good level is going to demand £80-100k

To the OP. If you can get a fresh import, then thats usually a good thing. Most JDM exports are in a lot better condition than most UK based Supras that Ive seen, even though some japanese owners do like doing some wacky modifications from time to time. Assuming you get lucky and the engine is in good nick still then you can probably do a single conversion that will do 500-700ish for around £10-20k depending on parts used and labour etc. If you are on the autobox then you should limit yourself to around 500-550hp area to try and keep it reliable, which will also be better for the engine in the longrun.

Do not. I repeat, do not put a BMW 6 speed into your car. Although these boxes are functional, they are noisy, feel like shit and don't drive anything like a well sorted V160 car does. If you want to lose value on your car put one of these boxes in, otherwise leave it auto or fit a V160. At least these days we now have a options with regards to V160 rebuilds, so I actually dont mind recomending it. 

I believe rider is correct that factory TT auto's, like all Supra will go up in value forevermore. The rate at which their value continues to increase is hard to predict, but they certainly wont be getting any cheaper. 

 If your car is going to actually be mint across the board, then doing a small single wont detract much from future value, especially if you modify it in a way that is reversable and hang onto the old bits.I have spoken with many owners who have basically made back what they have spent on modifications given the current value of their cars should they sell. So it's definately a possibility. 

My other advice would be to take the car to a specialist like SRD and give it a once over once you've taken delivery. There is a list of common problems with these cars that are fairly easy to spot to a trained eye. A roadmap of what is actually good and what needs improving if always nice to have, even if its not soemthing you do immediately. 

Good Luck

[MrMattyMc]

23 minutes ago, rider said:

I personally wouldn't spend £50k on any car without doing thorough research, I'm looking at  possibly buying a Austin Healey 3000 and before ditching £60k I'm doing all the due diligence as you have RHD converted LHD cars or replicas made in South Africa to look out for. Its a potential minefield buying classic cars. Having said that, I'm sure it'd be possible to buy a NA Auto Supra for £15k somewhere and slap in  an Aristo engine and BMW box and convince someone its a real deal bargain £50k TT6. On any sold as seen older car its condition and verifiable history that counts and not many Supras come with both which is one reason why the trade and auctions are the price setting drivers in Supra World as that route offers the buyer some security of purchase with a legal requirement to be as described and fit for purpose.

If you are new to Supra World you would do worse than talk to honest traders and there are plenty of thread again where the good ones and the not so good ones are discussed. The good thing about this forum is there is all the knowledge on Supras you could ever want or need accessible via the search button. I recently posted up an off site link to a very good buyers guide which is a good place to start for any new buyer.

 

I’ve never had a supra I’ve mainly had German cars last 10 years, last few a couple of e63’s but I’ve had an evo 8 about 10 years ago and I think that may of been one of my favourite just for how asbo it was.
I’m literally spending every spare hour I have whilst I’m off work trying to get as knowledgeable as possible before taking the dive. This really isn’t about making money I’ve lost 10’s thousands in the past from cars (lost that from just leasing an f type never mind modding cars) so know it’s dangerous territory going into this thinking I’ll be making money I’ll be happy to break even hopefully for once. I’ll have a look now for the buyers guide. Thanks again. 

 

17 minutes ago, Mike2JZ said:

Obviously a low mileage (10,000km or less) stock car is the holy grail and will always command the most resale value, but at this point these types of cars talking maybe 2-3% of the overall worldwide Supra market. 

I have seen plenty of fairly stock-ish Supra's come through the workshop that for lack of a better word are just tired. We are almost hitting the 30 year mark for some of the early models, and its starting to show. Although on paper the stock cars might be more desirable and may even sell for more to the uninitiated, its not uncommon for some of these examples to need a lot of restoration work to bring them back to the standard they should be at, especially if they have been neglected. Common areas that need attention is the engine & gearbox, seals & rubbers, suspension & chassis, paint and odd bits and pieces with regards to interior and wiring. I can guarentee that if you bring me an "alright" stock supra thats been driven rather than stored for 20 years, I can find at least 30k to spend on restoring it without any type of modification work. Recently I saw a Supra that had been "maintained" by Toyota UK for its whole life and it was a shame to see the state it was in, completely letdown by the dealerships! But on paper, I'm sure most sellers/buyers would wet themselves over such a maintanance history. 

Although not majority, there are quite a few very tastlefully modified Supra's in the UK that I know of, that got a full restoration as a part of their modification package. So whilst being able to boast a huge power figure, they are also in tip top condition with regards to the rest of the car. For me, these types of cars are worth every penny and can stll command eye watering prices. There are a few out there that I would take over a stock car that isnt mint, regardless of what the market price might dictate. 

On average I think most Supra's regardless of modifications fall into the category of being mostly working, fairly solid cars but all with their own qwerks and age related issues. A lot of the issues I see are mainly from DIY'ers doing their own work that then cause other issues that they choose to ignore or are ignorant to the issue. Luckily these cars were engineered to be fairly stout from the factory. There is also a shift happening currently between older Supra owners who bought their cars for 5-10k back in the good days and new owners that are paying 40K+ to join the game. The price of restorations are getting more expensive as parts are harder to source and in some cases is pricing out the older owners. It wont be long before a good example thats been mostly restored to a good level is going to demand £80-100k

To the OP. If you can get a fresh import, then thats usually a good thing. Most JDM exports are in a lot better condition than most UK based Supras that Ive seen, even though some japanese owners do like doing some wacky modifications from time to time. Assuming you get lucky and the engine is in good nick still then you can probably do a single conversion that will do 500-700ish for around £10-20k depending on parts used and labour etc. If you are on the autobox then you should limit yourself to around 500-550hp area to try and keep it reliable, which will also be better for the engine in the longrun.

Do not. I repeat, do not put a BMW 6 speed into your car. Although these boxes are functional, they are noisy, feel like shit and don't drive anything like a well sorted V160 car does. If you want to lose value on your car put one of these boxes in, otherwise leave it auto or fit a V160. At least these days we now have a options with regards to V160 rebuilds, so I actually dont mind recomending it. 

I believe rider is correct that factory TT auto's, like all Supra will go up in value forevermore. The rate at which their value continues to increase is hard to predict, but they certainly wont be getting any cheaper. 

 If your car is going to actually be mint across the board, then doing a small single wont detract much from future value, especially if you modify it in a way that is reversable and hang onto the old bits.I have spoken with many owners who have basically made back what they have spent on modifications given the current value of their cars should they sell. So it's definately a possibility. 

My other advice would be to take the car to a specialist like SRD and give it a once over once you've taken delivery. There is a list of common problems with these cars that are fairly easy to spot to a trained eye. A roadmap of what is actually good and what needs improving if always nice to have, even if its not soemthing you do immediately. 

Good Luck

Thanks for the lengthly reply. Yes I’ve gotten that impression from just reading in this forum, seen a couple of recent restorations where they have spent 30k easily so I would of hoped a less than 40000 miles import would be clean but if Its been in this country 10/15 years then more than likely it will need a lot of work underneath to be mint as well as you have more than pointed out.
I’m speaking to Jurgen at the minute from jm imports about importing a gte auto so we’ll see what’s available! 
I’m getting one of my guys to board my loft next week and start clearing out the garage so I can get it looking more like a mini workshop so I can get things underway. 

17 minutes ago, Mike2JZ said:

 

[MrMattyMc]

9 hours ago, rider said:

I personally wouldn't spend £50k on any car without doing thorough research, I'm looking at  possibly buying a Austin Healey 3000 and before ditching £60k I'm doing all the due diligence as you have RHD converted LHD cars or replicas made in South Africa to look out for. Its a potential minefield buying classic cars. Having said that, I'm sure it'd be possible to buy a NA Auto Supra for £15k somewhere and slap in  an Aristo engine and BMW box and convince someone its a real deal bargain £50k TT6. On any sold as seen older car its condition and verifiable history that counts and not many Supras come with both which is one reason why the trade and auctions are the price setting drivers in Supra World as that route offers the buyer some security of purchase with a legal requirement to be as described and fit for purpose.

If you are new to Supra World you would do worse than talk to honest traders and there are plenty of thread again where the good ones and the not so good ones are discussed. The good thing about this forum is there is all the knowledge on Supras you could ever want or need accessible via the search button. I recently posted up an off site link to a very good buyers guide which is a good place to start for any new buyer.

 

I can’t find that off site link on your profile feed regarding buyers guide would you mind posting link here please. 

[rider]

I did add the off site buyers guide link to the forum article buyers guide that is over 10 years old as a more up to date offering, but its got itself deleted so here it is again.

https://garagedreams.net/buyers-guide/buying-a-toyota-supra-mk4

[rider]

Aside from the archive of information available within forum entries there are an awful lot of long term owners on here who have happily grown old with their cars and many would be open to you visiting them to look over a car and have the typical problem areas highlighted for you to look out for. So if you put out where you live someone may come forward and offer to show you over their car(s). Some are greedy and have more than one Supra. 

On the bodywork there are places known to be weak point. Every Supra tailgate rusts at the bottom corner of the glass, caught early its not a big deal. Later on its a gully reconstruction job. Also, break that rear glass and where are you going to get a replacement from? Where there are lots of plastic stick on bits and some people add even more in the guise of body kits then they can hide rust on the sills and the rear quarters. The rear wheel wells can rust to. Pretty much all panels are now discontinued so almost any rust patching is going to require a recycled part or fabrication and welding. 

Underneath the cars rust more at the rear than the front. You can see what condition the fuel/brake lines are in and the rear sub frame. The rear tank guard tends to rust from the inside out as fine soil can collect inside the tank cover. Its worth taking off the rear number plate to look at the state of the rear crash bar, they buckle in an accident but also can rust badly. Its not uncommon, in fact its usual to see the inner sill channel crushed on a Supra due to incorrect jacking. It has got to the stage, due to the age of these cars, that it is best to do a underneath ramp inspection before committing to buy. Other minor things dissolve away to rust, the front brake dust shields can all but disappear. Bodge replacement fit new shields with a slot cut to fit, avoiding the need to remove the hub to fit correctly. The rear hub brake shields also rust. These are of thicker metal compared to the front so are more durable but they are a discontinued item so cannot be replaced with new any longer.

Be suspicious of any car that has any warning lights out. It has been known to remove the ABS light to hide sensor or pump issues. All lights should illuminate on power on. 

Look at the coolant condition. Left unattended for years (Toyota recommends changing every two years) then it will go brown with rust. Replacing a leaking heater matrix on these cars is a mammoth job. 

The real issue with these cars now is that almost all non service parts are hard to find or impossible to find. So what you buy is likely to be what you have for keeps unless you do replace things with a lot of not factory like components. Other than that its a bullet proof car. I haven't needed to ever replace a blown light bulb in coming up for 24 year of ownership. But do try to hook up with someone local to give you a warts and all tour of their own car.

[Scooter]

This is a good source for general info, lets you read the info on VIN's etc

MKIV Specifications

http://mkiv.supras.org.nz › specs

[MrMattyMc]

3 hours ago, rider said:

Aside from the archive of information available within forum entries there are an awful lot of long term owners on here who have happily grown old with their cars and many would be open to you visiting them to look over a car and have the typical problem areas highlighted for you to look out for. So if you put out where you live someone may come forward and offer to show you over their car(s). Some are greedy and have more than one Supra. 

On the bodywork there are places known to be weak point. Every Supra tailgate rusts at the bottom corner of the glass, caught early its not a big deal. Later on its a gully reconstruction job. Also, break that rear glass and where are you going to get a replacement from? Where there are lots of plastic stick on bits and some people add even more in the guise of body kits then they can hide rust on the sills and the rear quarters. The rear wheel wells can rust to. Pretty much all panels are now discontinued so almost any rust patching is going to require a recycled part or fabrication and welding. 

Underneath the cars rust more at the rear than the front. You can see what condition the fuel/brake lines are in and the rear sub frame. The rear tank guard tends to rust from the inside out as fine soil can collect inside the tank cover. Its worth taking off the rear number plate to look at the state of the rear crash bar, they buckle in an accident but also can rust badly. Its not uncommon, in fact its usual to see the inner sill channel crushed on a Supra due to incorrect jacking. It has got to the stage, due to the age of these cars, that it is best to do a underneath ramp inspection before committing to buy. Other minor things dissolve away to rust, the front brake dust shields can all but disappear. Bodge replacement fit new shields with a slot cut to fit, avoiding the need to remove the hub to fit correctly. The rear hub brake shields also rust. These are of thicker metal compared to the front so are more durable but they are a discontinued item so cannot be replaced with new any longer.

Be suspicious of any car that has any warning lights out. It has been known to remove the ABS light to hide sensor or pump issues. All lights should illuminate on power on. 

Look at the coolant condition. Left unattended for years (Toyota recommends changing every two years) then it will go brown with rust. Replacing a leaking heater matrix on these cars is a mammoth job. 

The real issue with these cars now is that almost all non service parts are hard to find or impossible to find. So what you buy is likely to be what you have for keeps unless you do replace things with a lot of not factory like components. Other than that its a bullet proof car. I haven't needed to ever replace a blown light bulb in coming up for 24 year of ownership. But do try to hook up with someone local to give you a warts and all tour of their own car.

I never thought about that, that would be amazing if someone could I live in Newcastle but understand it’s a big ask I would prefer going to buy a car fully prepared, again appreciate the lengthy post but seeing and someone pointing out issues would be a lifesaver and a real help as you have said. 
 

I’ve been looking at a load of jap auction houses and seen what looked like perfect matches but l wouldn’t feel confident importing especially after reading the post you put up previous and seen a couple of people on here have cars damaged when picking up from port. 
 

I’m trying not to look at cars too much yet, as per first post feb is looking like the date when I can start properly looking but anything can happen in property trying not to think about it too much. 

[MrMattyMc]

2 hours ago, Scooter said:

This is a good source for general info, lets you read the info on VIN's etc

MKIV Specifications

http://mkiv.supras.org.nz › specs

Thanks I’ve got that saved for future reference! 

[Scooter]

It's so so tricky buying one now IMO, anyone on here from the old days (ie me) can't quite wrap their heads around the prices and you have very few restored ones (if you find one they might well be worth the premium) so not only are the prices high but the aging issues often there too. 

I'd say the import method is not a bad one Jurgen has vast experience so you should get a good base, just everything 'Supra' is now pricey, and used parts even are hard to find, astronomically priced or both!

Edited January 3, 2022 by Scooter
spelling (see edit history)

[The Raven]

Im well out of the game regarding prices.

If i sell which i have been saying for years and years it will be down to parts or lack there of.

@mwilkinson is doing a nut and bolt rebuild more or less might be worth taking a look at his build thread for ideas on bits to replace. Mine has had a rebuilt engine, bushes, all rubber hoses replaced. And still failed on a ball joint which lucky for me a breaker had in stock. It was used to get it though MOT and now i can send my old one off to be refurbed. I was quite smug i had future proofed my car alas not. 

If you go down the rebuild route do it all would be my advise. Or sooner or later the 25 year old bit of rubber will break. 

If your doing it for investment, then id suggest that maybe getting a clean stock car and rebuilding that would get more money in the future?