Turbo Manifolds

[TrickyBlue]

I'm looking for a new tubular manifold for my NA-T build. 

I've looked at 6boost and Walton, wondering what other brands are out there?

Has anyone had any experience with the cheaper 11 gauge CX Racing or XS Power manifolds? 

[Noz]

It really comes down to budget. If plan to have a huge turbo or have money able to spend on a costly manifold there's no harm in doing it, but its not essential.

Think someone had a serious fitment issue with walton lately.

I've got a cheaper xs power and never had any issues. The problem with the budget manifolds are the waste gate location being under the car. This is a right ball ache. I modified mine by rotating the waste gate outlet tubing to locate it in the engine bay now next to the turbo, but its just hassle to do that for most people. Benefit of costly manifolds they don't have this issue and its all there in the bay from the word go.

I also ported my manifold to make it nice inside. But at 600hp I've never had any exhaust flow issues and boost control has been consistent.

If you can afford a higher end manifold without impacting the project. Id go that route. If a manifold cracks. You can weld it. It's not a deal breaker. But rotating the waste gate outlet is for, sure hassle. And welding is highly unlikely. Some cheaper manifolds also report of not having a true flat mating surface on the head. I skimmed mine after rotating the WG outlet and adding bracing. But this was just a precaution, as it had been through some serious welding. Another step to ensure I had no issues, with an expensive one you shouldn't even have to worry about.

My only other niggle is due to the custom work I cant fit an exhaust cover on for heat shielding. Turbo is too close to the WG. Which was just an oversize during placement. As I didn't think about heat protection. Just something to keep in mind whatever route you go. 

Having the wastegate under the car is not an issue. But if you have a problem. Suddenly it becomes a right pain.

For sub 800hp, a cheaper manifold and a few home improvements go a long way and save lots of tokens. If you just want a plug and play option and can afford a pretty one, I'd get one from whifbitz or srd. I've not felt there's any benefit using an over seas supplier. If there's an issue. It's a lot of money to faff around over.

I have a 6870 on order (which has taken nearly a fking year) and I intend to use one of the two suppliers above for that. Then I'll sell my beloved xs power.

Edited September 19, 2021 by Noz (see edit history)

[TrickyBlue]

4 hours ago, Noz said:

It really comes down to budget. If plan to have a huge turbo or have money able to spend on a costly manifold there's no harm in doing it, but its not essential.

Think someone had a serious fitment issue with walton lately.

I've got a cheaper xs power and never had any issues. The problem with the budget manifolds are the waste gate location being under the car. This is a right ball ache. I modified mine by rotating the waste gate outlet tubing to locate it in the engine bay now next to the turbo, but its just hassle to do that for most people. Benefit of costly manifolds they don't have this issue and its all there in the bay from the word go.

I also ported my manifold to make it nice inside. But at 600hp I've never had any exhaust flow issues and boost control has been consistent.

If you can afford a higher end manifold without impacting the project. Id go that route. If a manifold cracks. You can weld it. It's not a deal breaker. But rotating the waste gate outlet is for, sure hassle. And welding is highly unlikely. Some cheaper manifolds also report of not having a true flat mating surface on the head. I skimmed mine after rotating the WG outlet and adding bracing. But this was just a precaution, as it had been through some serious welding. Another step to ensure I had no issues, with an expensive one you shouldn't even have to worry about.

My only other niggle is due to the custom work I cant fit an exhaust cover on for heat shielding. Turbo is too close to the WG. Which was just an oversize during placement. As I didn't think about heat protection. Just something to keep in mind whatever route you go. 

Having the wastegate under the car is not an issue. But if you have a problem. Suddenly it becomes a right pain.

For sub 800hp, a cheaper manifold and a few home improvements go a long way and save lots of tokens. If you just want a plug and play option and can afford a pretty one, I'd get one from whifbitz or srd. I've not felt there's any benefit using an over seas supplier. If there's an issue. It's a lot of money to faff around over.

I have a 6870 on order (which has taken nearly a fking year) and I intend to use one of the two suppliers above for that. Then I'll sell my beloved xs power.

Thanks for the detailed reply. I have been advised that in terms of flow and power then there won't be much difference between the xs power ones and the 6boost manfolds. 

If it cracks then its a simple job for someone that knows what they are doing, I'm not that guy. 

I'll be around 700bhp so theres really no need to go all out on a Whifbitz or SRD, as good as they are theyre probably overkill for my build.

[Noz]

I'd go with a cheap one mate.

With a bit of support from a local welder and machinist I reckon could make it perfect for your setup.

To summarise what I would do to a cheap ebay manifold from what I've learnt:

- rotate wastegate port 180. Ideally with turbo and wastegate attached so you can ensure not too close together.

- change 4 bolt to vband outlet or machine up a small adapter

- brace turbo location against the main flange 

- machine flat the mating face just to be sure of sealing face

- get some burrs. Attachments for cleaning passages and go over any welds internally as low cost manifolds won't have this

 

I'd call that a job done. I wouldn't wrap it until you've used it for a bit. To make sure a few heat cycles doesnt cause any cracking.

Hope it helps.

[Swampy442]

You get what you pay for, thats all Ill say about it. Buy cheap and put a load of work in to get it right, or buy something quality like HKS which will work off the bat.

Up to you.

[TrickyBlue]

35 minutes ago, Swampy442 said:

You get what you pay for, thats all Ill say about it. Buy cheap and put a load of work in to get it right, or buy something quality like HKS which will work off the bat.

Up to you.

Do HKS make one for the GE engine? I've done a quick google but couldnt find one.

[Noz]

13 hours ago, Swampy442 said:

You get what you pay for, thats all Ill say about it. Buy cheap and put a load of work in to get it right, or buy something quality like HKS which will work off the bat.

Up to you.

Comes back to if you have the funds to do the bigger expense. The extra expense isn't critical. It's a nice to have. You could just use the cheaper one as it is.

Just preference to make it a bit better really.

Have you ever used a cheaper manifold, and had experience with one. Or just commenting from the viewpoint - buy the most expensive everything or it won't work  Us NA owners can't always afford to do that.

[mharvey]

I sit on the fence a little with this and can only give my opinion having now gone through a few set-ups. 

1) I initially ran an XS-Power set up. It did what was asked of it, at circa 450bhp.

Like Noz, I did have to mess around with it a bit; I had to have the face skimmed and the wastegate changed to a v-band.

 

I then decided to go with a bigger turbo...

This was the end of the road for the XS power as it would not work with a BW S366, the turbo was too large, fouled on a runner and wouldn't fit at all.

 

2) I therefore bought a Walton manifold. This fitted first time and I didn't have to mess about with any of the aforementioned bits, worked out of the box with a 50mm wastegate, S366 turbo and a 3in downpipe. 

I've since decided to change things up again, this time going with an S369, a 60mm wastegate and a 4in downpipe. 

Unfortunately this also meant the end of the road for the Walton manifold. The 50mm wastegate was a restriction at the levels I wanted and the position of said wastegate could not facilitate a 4in downpipe. 

 

3) I've now gone with an SRD manifold with billet connector.

Hopefully this manifold will see me out indefinitely. It's a lovely bit of kit and i have every bit of faith in Lee standing by his product. 

-

I guess to summarise, if you are prepared to mess about with chopping and changing and if you are happy with a smaller frame turbo/lower power levels; then the xs power will probably suffice.

However if you want to fit and forget, not worry about cracking etc and be future proofed for any upgrades that the future may bring, then I'd strongly consider just doing it once and doing it right. 

I know if I'd hung on a little longer, saved and done things right the first time, I'd have more use out of my car and it would have cost me a lot less.

This applies to everything, I'll soon have had 3 manifolds, 3 turbos, 2 ecu's, 3 gearboxes, 4 clutch set-ups, 2 forged engines....I don't think there's a single part on the car that featured in the first build 

[Noz]

I've a 4 inch downpipe and 60mm waste gate on mine for reference.

I used mine out the box for 420hp for a few years. The mods came few years down the line.

[TrickyBlue]

3 hours ago, mharvey said:

I sit on the fence a little with this and can only give my opinion having now gone through a few set-ups. 

1) I initially ran an XS-Power set up. It did what was asked of it, at circa 450bhp.

Like Noz, I did have to mess around with it a bit; I had to have the face skimmed and the wastegate changed to a v-band.

 

I then decided to go with a bigger turbo...

This was the end of the road for the XS power as it would not work with a BW S366, the turbo was too large, fouled on a runner and wouldn't fit at all.

 

2) I therefore bought a Walton manifold. This fitted first time and I didn't have to mess about with any of the aforementioned bits, worked out of the box with a 50mm wastegate, S366 turbo and a 3in downpipe. 

I've since decided to change things up again, this time going with an S369, a 60mm wastegate and a 4in downpipe. 

Unfortunately this also meant the end of the road for the Walton manifold. The 50mm wastegate was a restriction at the levels I wanted and the position of said wastegate could not facilitate a 4in downpipe. 

 

3) I've now gone with an SRD manifold with billet connector.

Hopefully this manifold will see me out indefinitely. It's a lovely bit of kit and i have every bit of faith in Lee standing by his product. 

-

I guess to summarise, if you are prepared to mess about with chopping and changing and if you are happy with a smaller frame turbo/lower power levels; then the xs power will probably suffice.

However if you want to fit and forget, not worry about cracking etc and be future proofed for any upgrades that the future may bring, then I'd strongly consider just doing it once and doing it right. 

I know if I'd hung on a little longer, saved and done things right the first time, I'd have more use out of my car and it would have cost me a lot less.

This applies to everything, I'll soon have had 3 manifolds, 3 turbos, 2 ecu's, 3 gearboxes, 4 clutch set-ups, 2 forged engines....I don't think there's a single part on the car that featured in the first build 

I'm running a s360 at the moment but thinking about upgrading to the 366 at some point in the future. Its abit concerning your s366 didnt fit the xs power one, i guess that rules that out.

I'd love the SRD one but at £2,400 it's just far too much for me to spend on a manifold. That's why i looked at the 6Boost, seems a great manifold and can be had for £1000 or there abouts all in.

[Mike2JZ]

In general most aftermarket tubular manifolds will flow enough for most power goals, however the one thing that I see time and time again on cheaper & expensive manifolds is bad wastegate routing or incorrect wastegate sizing that leads to boost creep. 

Nothing worse then trying to tune a car and having no boost control because the wastegate essentially does nothing as it dosen't recieve the required flow to regulate the turbo. Your manifold could flow the best on the market, but if your minimum boost is 2bar+ because your wastegate can't keep up then you won't get very far. 

For example, a lot of XS power manifolds/cheap ebay ones will allow you to run ~45mm wastegate, but if you actually look at the wastegate tubing leaving the collector of the manifold, the angle is completely wrong for good flow out of the collector, and although the piping is around 45mm, the actual hole in the collector is usually a lot smaller. On several occasions I've seen this lead to poor boost control and boost creep. Of course if you are handy with a welder then you can rectify the above, but it is aggro for the average DIY'er. 

Inefficient manifold to wastegate designs obviously still work to a point and isn't as much of a problem on smaller/older design turbos, but problems with control get highlighted as you move to bigger and/or more efficient modern turbo designs. 

On my own setup I had a walton T4 single with a 50mm gate that had zero boost creep with an ebay T70, S360 & S366 with a 3'' downpipe. Then I changed to a 4'' downpipe and freer flowing exhaust and I was starting to creep a few psi on boost. Then I changed to much more efficient precision 6875, and my minimum boost was 2.5 bar as the manifold/wastegate design couldn't keep up. In the end I had our fabrication wizard add another wastegate runner to my collector and swapped to a 60mm gate and my boost control was sweet again but that wasn't an easy modification. 

Ideally you need to spec a turbo, manifold and wastegate setup to work together in a way that will suit your requirements but also give you headroom for future expansion. A cheaper manifold may be cheaper now, but if you have to change it everytime you change your turbo then it's more exspensive in the long run.

From what I've seen so far an SRD manifold combo will have perfect boost control with a 1 bar wastegate spring from a turbo as small as a precison 5858 (450hp) all the way up to a Precision 7675 (1200hp). That has taken a lot of time, experimenting and experience to put together something that will do the above and covers the needs of 90% of builds out there. However if you go stick a Promod 102mm turbo on that manifold, chances are it will boost creep and a different design will be required. So horses for coures

Some other considerations with choosing a manifold that is hard to confirm when you are staring at a photo on the internet, but can make a massive difference.

- Physical ease of install/uninstall of the manfiold and wastegate itself
- Position of turbo and effect on turbo oil drain/oil feed/downpipe/intercooler pipe positioning
- Size limitations of turbo compressors/turbine housings/ fouling on pipes / strut towers/ bonnets etc
- Runner size and implications on boost response & flow
- Material strength and what support if any will be given in the event of cracking/failure. 
- Serviceability - Will you need to maintain multiple wastegates and screamer pipes etc. Can you remove turbo/wastegate without having to remove the entire manifold?
- Noise & Tone - Does it sound epic, or like a tractor on boost?
 

My recomendation is that if you are only shooting for 400-450hp and have no major desire to go to more than that, then you can probably get away with a cheaper manifold. If you have any desire to one day go to 700hp+ or more, even if it's over multiple iterations then I would always spend money on a setup that will cost more now but if done correctly means that you are never touching the manifold/wastegate combo again, rather just changing the turbo and pipework to the turbo.

 

Quote

I'd love the SRD one but at £2,400 it's just far too much for me to spend on a manifold. That's why i looked at the 6Boost, seems a great manifold and can be had for £1000 or there abouts all in.

I presume you are on an NA-T then?

That price is including a HKS wastegate, I think manifold prices are around £1600 by themselves. Due to the billet collector and billet wastegate flanges the prices will be higher than say a 6 boost which is just made from steam pipe. 

I'm not trying to talk shit on other brands there are many valid ways to achieve the points mentioned above, I am just biased as I'm surrounded by the SRD product line on a day to day basis and see the results for myself. 

 

Edited September 20, 2021 by Mike2JZ (see edit history)

[Noz]

Always enjoy reading your well balanced data driven posts mate! Thanks for chipping in.

[Swampy442]

Ergo, you get what you pay for 

 

[TrickyBlue]

@Mike2JZ great post, thankyou for taking the time to post that.

I am currently na-t running 490bhp on the whifbitz log manifold. My engine is currently being rebuilt at the moment aiming for 700bhp (at the crank) 

[AC93]

As above, if your sticking to 400/450bhp then you'll probably get away with a cheaper manifold.

I have a Walton manifold and it was a piece of crap to fit, sat too high and had to be modified, now sits a bit further back than ideal and the 4" DP is as tight as anything. But it all works and makes the power. With a 50mm WG and S364 I can't go any bigger without some kind of boost creep on low boost/1bar, but the goal was 700 and that's I built it for from the off by having it forged, VVTi, cams etc. 

If you plan to go bigger power later, save up and do it once. If I was doing it again I would buy the SRD manifold.. and I will have to when I go for bigger power  (the hassle with Walton meant it actually cost more overall!)

 

[TrickyBlue]

@AC93 I've seen a few people saying the Walton wasn't a great fit. When you're paying £1,500 for a manifold you expect it to be pretty spot in imo.

 

I'm surprised there is no love for the whifbitz manifold. No one tried their one?

[Burna]

For the price of £1600 I'd go for the SRD one, as I've seen them in the flesh and chatted to Ash (who makes them) about them for a good while when I've been down at SRD. A lot of work and development has gone in to them to make them a 'fit and forget' item.

Edited September 22, 2021 by Burna (see edit history)

[Style]

3 hours ago, TrickyBlue said:

@AC93 I've seen a few people saying the Walton wasn't a great fit. When you're paying £1,500 for a manifold you expect it to be pretty spot in imo.

 

I'm surprised there is no love for the whifbitz manifold. No one tried their one?

Whifbitz one is pretty much the same price as the SRD one. Seems like pretty much anything will work for you with the XS Power potentially needing some extra £ spent to get it performing properly. Spend what you deem to be acceptable and go have fun, you'll be fine with any of them

[zen]

For those hp goals a SPA or PHR cast manifold would be enough. If you really want a tubular manifold, I would seriously consider the 6 boost or SP F1.

Edited September 23, 2021 by zen (see edit history)

[Walton Motorsport]

Apologies for resurrecting an old thread but a few people have drawn my attention to it. My name is Andy and I work for Walton Motorsport, Ill reply below in a manner that isn’t intended to be a sales pitch as to not tread on anyone’s toes. But if any mods etc could contact me about being a trader that would be great as I have tried in the past but not got hold of anyone.

First thing I would like to address is fitment issues with our JZ Manifolds, originally our JZ manifolds was based around 2JZ engine conversions, (such as S-chassis) and JZX and designed to suit up to a T3 frame size (so Garrett G35, GTX35 sized turbos). A couple of guys bought this manifold for their Supras and it turned out that they didn’t fit, due to the lower front bonnet height of the supra. This prompted the “Type B” manifold (Original is the Type A), and we swopped those guys to the Type B fitment. The Type B also fits larger turbos than the Type A. The Type A features a tuned primary pipe length to give a slightly faster spool. Whereas due to Turbo location on the Type B the lengths are not quite as optimal. The Type B positions is close to the Whifbitz and SRD Manifolds.

In reference to user mharvey – I’m not sure which variation of manifold you had (if you provided details we can check) however the likeliness is that it was a “small port” manifold, which is why the 60mm wastegate would not fit. The large port manifolds are ideal for 60mm wastegates, and in Type B fitment will support a 4” Downpipe, although in our experience a well designed 3.5” will easily flow 1000bhp+

In reference to user AC93 – I’m sorry you have had such a bad experience, if we had known at the time we would have changed you onto a Type B. But do in contact with us and we will see if we can help you out.

 

In terms of cheap vs expensive tubular manifolds. I will give you a quick overview. But I can go into more detail if anyone wants me to.

If you ignore fitment and physical pipe layout, Wastegate port placement is a big one, you need to get as much gas to flow down the port as possible but without introducing a load of turbulence into the collector which will affect turbo performance. The reason people have success on cheap manifolds is because they are generally running older or less efficient turbos that do not require as much control as something like the G-Series from Garrett. The other issue is internal build quality, cheaper manifolds have all sorts of horrors inside that can fracture off with the heat and vibrations which then travel through the turbo potentially causing damage. So in summary a cheap manifold can well get a respectable power figure, its more of a control and longevity issue.

More than happy to answer anyones questions about manifolds in general

[Swampy442]

Welcome

[ashloys]

On 6/9/2022 at 3:22 PM, Walton Motorsport said:

Apologies for resurrecting an old thread but a few people have drawn my attention to it. My name is Andy and I work for Walton Motorsport, Ill reply below in a manner that isn’t intended to be a sales pitch as to not tread on anyone’s toes. But if any mods etc could contact me about being a trader that would be great as I have tried in the past but not got hold of anyone.

First thing I would like to address is fitment issues with our JZ Manifolds, originally our JZ manifolds was based around 2JZ engine conversions, (such as S-chassis) and JZX and designed to suit up to a T3 frame size (so Garrett G35, GTX35 sized turbos). A couple of guys bought this manifold for their Supras and it turned out that they didn’t fit, due to the lower front bonnet height of the supra. This prompted the “Type B” manifold (Original is the Type A), and we swopped those guys to the Type B fitment. The Type B also fits larger turbos than the Type A. The Type A features a tuned primary pipe length to give a slightly faster spool. Whereas due to Turbo location on the Type B the lengths are not quite as optimal. The Type B positions is close to the Whifbitz and SRD Manifolds.

In reference to user mharvey – I’m not sure which variation of manifold you had (if you provided details we can check) however the likeliness is that it was a “small port” manifold, which is why the 60mm wastegate would not fit. The large port manifolds are ideal for 60mm wastegates, and in Type B fitment will support a 4” Downpipe, although in our experience a well designed 3.5” will easily flow 1000bhp+

In reference to user AC93 – I’m sorry you have had such a bad experience, if we had known at the time we would have changed you onto a Type B. But do in contact with us and we will see if we can help you out.

 

In terms of cheap vs expensive tubular manifolds. I will give you a quick overview. But I can go into more detail if anyone wants me to.

If you ignore fitment and physical pipe layout, Wastegate port placement is a big one, you need to get as much gas to flow down the port as possible but without introducing a load of turbulence into the collector which will affect turbo performance. The reason people have success on cheap manifolds is because they are generally running older or less efficient turbos that do not require as much control as something like the G-Series from Garrett. The other issue is internal build quality, cheaper manifolds have all sorts of horrors inside that can fracture off with the heat and vibrations which then travel through the turbo potentially causing damage. So in summary a cheap manifold can well get a respectable power figure, its more of a control and longevity issue.

More than happy to answer anyones questions about manifolds in general

Thanks Andy, good to see you on here! 

 

I've just committed to one of your manifolds myself, Type B. Can't wait to get it! 

 

If it's you fabricating it, send me a few wee progress videos  haha