Supra-love Posted July 27, 2020 Share Posted July 27, 2020 (edited) Ok so I’ve had a reply from Opie oils here is there reply! Hi Luke Over the years we've dealt with a lot of Supras, Skylines and M3s with the Getrag box and I always recommend an ATF that covers the Toyota Type IV or Nissanmatic J specs and I have never come across any issues with those oils in the Getrag boxes. Looking at the links you sent through, there has been some over thinking and some of what is mentioned is a bit odd. Using MTL or a 75w-90 in a Getrag would not be something I would recommend, they are too thick, Getrags are designed to run on thin oils. Where they are using the colour as possibly a guide to what the oil is, that's just pointless, the colour is a dye and it doesn't have to mean anything at all. Yes, a lot of ATFs are red, but there are green, blue, yellow and clear ones too. Due to the gearbox specs I would go for either the Amsoil ATF, Motul Multi ATF, Red Line D4, Fuchs ATF4400, Gulf Multi Vehicle ATF, Castrol ATF Multi Vehicle or Millers Millermatic ATF SPIII. https://www.opieoils.co.uk/c-1432-atf-automatic-transmission-fluid-for-cars.aspx Regards Tim Edited July 27, 2020 by Supra-love (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alxns Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 (edited) I fully understand Tim here and I'll try to explain, hopefully this will help others too. Contacting Toyota France on my end has not proven to be of much use... But less than 80 Supras have been sold here. Maybe the whole Gazoo heritage stuff will move things a bit. About two weeks ago I started ordering fluids for the car, as usual I tried sticking to what the manuals say. In 2017 I couldn't find any D21065 but thought I'd try ATF 220, as it is recommended by Mobil for Dexron IID applications. Just for peace of mind I contacted Mobil to ask whether it'd be fine to use either ATF220 or ATF3309 for my transmission, that requires discontinued D-21065. I mentioned that it now had the ATF220 fluid which seemed to work nicely. To my surprise their first response was just telling me Hello Sir, D21065 is available in France, here are the codes, you can just order from Mobil resellers 1L, 20L or 208L. So I thought wait a minute... I'm pretty sure I couldn't find any 3 years ago, and now all of a sudden I can order 55 US GAL drums? So after exchanging a little more with the Mobil Help Desk Engineer, basically she told me that D-21065 is for specific PSA applications, ATF220 and ATF D-21065 are not interchangeable, ATF3309 is for T-IV applications, and they recommend sticking to the manual recommendations. No surprise here, she was just following what is written on each product data sheet. Apparently PSA have started manufacturing a new transmission last year, maybe 2018, I'm not sure. I had experience in industrial maintenance so I thought I'd do some digging. Didn't care much about ATFs before, but it is very interesting. Just going through french forums and asking a few friends, it turns out, PSA have been using ESSO ATF D-21065 for ages in their transmissions. Just an example: a 1986 Peugeot 505 owner's manual specifically states that ESSO ATF Dexron II D21065 along with Shell Dexron II D20137 are the approved fluids for the auto trans. Those are GM Dexron IID license numbers, but does it mean you may use any Dexron IID ATF in that car? Not necessarily. PSA have been providing their own badged ATF D-21065 containers. They don't use a special name like ZF Lifeguard, V160 Gear Oil, BNR34 Special, BMW MTF etc. Nowadays it's "Huile ATF D 21065 boite auto", so kudos to them. At least it saves us the guesswork, unlike for some of the Getrag and ZF transmissions. Bear in mind that usually, trans fluids are designed to be for life, without any change. Just inspecting the oil level and condition is required. I think even the Supra maintenance schedule don't require any V160 Oil change (that's for "normal operation" mind you. But what is Supra normal operation these days ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ) BMWs with the Getrag 420G 6MT have that yellow sticker stating "MTF-LT-1, LIFE TIME OIL, DO NOT CHANGE" or something, if I'm not mistaken. According to the manufacturers, you would need the Fluid just for overhauls, and "special conditions" driving (our case) As to why I was talking about safety data sheets... Tim is absolutely right, comparing colours is pointless. However those sheets are 10-page long, there's a lot, mainly density, flash point, viscosities are interesting for fluids. Those are not always the actual product specifications BTW, merely a guidance for identifying the product in situations such as spillage, person ingestion, environmental hazards etc. Cross check data and you can pretty much identify what is what. V160 Gear Oil is 100% ATF D-21065, a then Dexron IID-licensed ATF. As to where it is manufactured... The japanese V160 Gear Oil safety data sheet supplier is EMG Marketing (now EMG Lubricants) in Tokyo. Not necessarily the manufacturer though. Why is it referred to as "Castle Gear Oil"? Toyota Castle "Kyassuru" キャッスル is Toyota's brand of genuine oils in Japan. So.. yeah, a lot of transmissions use ATF D21065 as the approved fluid, or for factory filling. Most are manual, or automated manual, BTW. PSA transmissions, Jaguar S-Type Getrag 221 5MT, early Smart 450/452 Getrag 431 6AMT, Supra Getrag 233 6MT, R34 GTR Getrag 233 6MT, probably many others, it's hard to track down because they don't always disclose what they use exactly, even in manuals. Just check the owner's manuals or repair manuals for those cars, see what it says exactly. I couldn't find all of them. For our Getrag 233s: 1993 French Supra Owner's manual: "BOITE DE VITESSES MANUELLE: TYPE D'HUILE: ESSO ATF DEXRON D-21065, TOYOTA GEAR OIL V160 ou un équivalent". Pretty sure every 1993 Supra owner's manual has the same mention. They got rid of the "...or equivalent" in future publications. 1997 USDM Supra Repair Manual, publication RM502U: Oil type: TOYOTA GEAR OIL V160 or ESSO ATF DEXRON®D-21065 1999 Nissan R34 Service Manual Supplement I, for the GT-R: "Nissan Mission Oil BNR34 special only" The "only" is pretty explicit. I could not find any data sheet for the KLD40-00004 Nissan part number, but there are pictures that show that it is ESSO ATF D-21065. Not sure the BMW's Getrag 420G uses ATF D21065. If I had to guess, it's Mobil ATF LT 71141. But I lack evidence, I didn't look for the BMW sheets. Chris Wilson posted an oil analysis report in 2006 for the BMW MTF-LT-1 fluid., I'll let you open the Great V160 Challenge pdf. Compare the V160 Gear Oil (ATF D-21065), the Toyota ATF T-IV (ATF 3309), the BMW MTF-LT-1 from CW's analysis, and check viscosities, the Boron (Friction modifier) and Phosphore (Extreme Pressure additive) content. Additionally, you can check densities in the data sheets. Make your own opinion. Toyota replaced the V160 Gear Oil/ATF D-21065 with ATF Type T-IV in Europe. If I had to guess, it's just because of logistics. I won't believe that Type T-IV -Toyota's multi-vehicle ATF- is an acceptable replacement unless there is a Toyota Tech Bulletin specifically addressing this. Of the many posts over on Supraforums.com: Toyota doesn't make the Getrag anyways, so you won't have to only Toyota Fluid. I think the ESSO fluid is just some average old technology fluid anyways. Apparently it is very good old technology! I think two weeks of overthinking is fair, considering that on supraforums.com there has been a lot of underthinking for 10+ years. Can't hurt, especially given the insane values and that there is no Getrag support anymore. I know I'll stick to fresh PSA D21065, and not order old V160 tins from the US with ridiculous prices, sometimes approaching 100 USD/Litre (29% off!) Back to the topic, here are the current references that I know of so far, available in Europe: Peugeot/Citroën ATF D 21065, code is 9730AC on the french peugeot/citroen accessories websites, might be different in the UK Smart/Mercedes L 20 Gear Oil, code Q0022037V000000000 Mobil ATF D 21065, 1L code 150997, 20L code 150999, 208L code 150997 (at least those are the codes I got from Mobil France) Not sure what Toyota France now gets for V160 gear oil part number 08885-01306. I'll check Now... I ordered 2x1L Mobil ATF D 21065 from a reseller in Belgium. The fluid I got was manufactured in 2012. Very interestingly, on the sticker, only the French paragraph says the following: "Use within 5 years from MFG date" So just beware. I told them it was old and they are sending me a fresh batch, no problem I think I'm gonna pay Peugeot a visit and get myself some fresh 1986 Peugeot 505 ATF for my 1993 Supra V160 manual transmission EDIT: clarity Edited July 30, 2020 by alxns (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rider Posted July 28, 2020 Author Share Posted July 28, 2020 There are lots of sealed for life Getrag auto boxes that have expired after 80k miles, just trawl Jag and Land Rover forums for tales of broken gearboxes, so even with sealed for life its still going to be prudent to do an oil and filter change before 100k miles on a manual. As I mentioned before concerning Red Line gear oil, there is lots of talk about their ATF fluids on US forums about it causing all sorts of leaks on older gearboxes because they overdo it on the seal swell characteristics so its probably best avoided. As for shelf life there isn't much in the way of addtives that will not age well in a ATF fluid except maybe if they contain unstable silicates that are one class of additives employed in oils to prevent foaming. If there is no phase seperation (some additved are sheared in rather than mix blended - like silicates) or evidence of cloudy sediment in just about any oil then its good to use. I have the D21065 on order from Lubweb so it'll be interesting to see how they check out for batch code date. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supra-love Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 There are lots of sealed for life Getrag auto boxes that have expired after 80k miles, just trawl Jag and Land Rover forums for tales of broken gearboxes, so even with sealed for life its still going to be prudent to do an oil and filter change before 100k miles on a manual. As I mentioned before concerning Red Line gear oil, there is lots of talk about their ATF fluids on US forums about it causing all sorts of leaks on older gearboxes because they overdo it on the seal swell characteristics so its probably best avoided. As for shelf life there isn't much in the way of addtives that will not age well in a ATF fluid except maybe if they contain unstable silicates that are one class of additives employed in oils to prevent foaming. If there is no phase seperation (some additved are sheared in rather than mix blended - like silicates) or evidence of cloudy sediment in just about any oil then its good to use. I have the D21065 on order from Lubweb so it'll be interesting to see how they check out for batch code date. Where did you order it mate? From the eBay listing or direct. I couldn’t make head nor tail of the french site. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alxns Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 Just checked, you can only choose France Belgium or Luxembourg from the website. I have also asked concerning MFG dates of the batches they stock, I'll let you guys know what they say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rider Posted July 29, 2020 Author Share Posted July 29, 2020 I ordered two bottles via their eBay listing. Estimated arrival given at time of ordering is the end of this week. I'll stick the car up on the ramp in Septemeber for its pre-MOT poke around so I'll be looking to swap out the RP Syncromax then that has been in for probably 5 years - or about 2,000 miles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supra-love Posted July 29, 2020 Share Posted July 29, 2020 (edited) I ordered two bottles via their eBay listing. Estimated arrival given at time of ordering is the end of this week. I'll stick the car up on the ramp in Septemeber for its pre-MOT poke around so I'll be looking to swap out the RP Syncromax then that has been in for probably 5 years - or about 2,000 miles. Sweet mate! Hopefully it’ll work well. I’ve seen O.E.M multi transmission oil on eBay which is a GM Dextron II D. Which I think will be just right also. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/333237005305 But I think I’m going to go with the febi 22806 https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/351414992585 Edited July 29, 2020 by Supra-love (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alxns Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 (edited) That multi-vehicle Aisin JWS3309 ATF is a JWS3309/Toyota T-IV spec ATF. It's recommended for the other listed applications, not necessarily approved. It also says Dexron IIE, IIIF/G/H. Same deal for the febi ATF. Over on the Mercedes 'MB BeVo' pages they specifically say We recommend using only products 1. Which are distinctly marked with the label indicating the approval of Mercedes-Benz, e.g. “MB-Approval 229.51”. Labels referring e.g. to “MB 229.51” don't have an approval of Mercedes-Benz. 2. Which are listed in the current MB BeVo. Only listed products are tested and approved by Mercedes-Benz. I'm sorry I know I'm coming a little strong on this, but I think the goal is to get what's best, and that is the fully tested and approved gear oil back in the 90s. We're lucky to have just that in Europe. If anyone is on supraforums.com and can maybe get the guys who did the V160 fluid challenge to do an updated analysis with some fresh Japanese V160 gear oil, Peugeot ATF D21065, Mercedes Smart 450/452 gear oil, Nissan special gear oil, and Mobil ATF D21065. With the data they could then identify a similar ATF distributed over there. And see whether it proves me wrong. Edited July 30, 2020 by alxns (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rider Posted August 3, 2020 Author Share Posted August 3, 2020 The mobil oil arrived today from France. There is no date stamp or batch reference on the bottles. It is a red dyed ATF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rider Posted August 4, 2020 Author Share Posted August 4, 2020 (edited) Comparing the Mobil product spec to the V160 data included in the great V160 fluid challenge comparison is: Viscosity 100C V160 OEM oil 7.2cSt (test result) Mobil D 21065 7.4cSt (Specification) Flash point V160 OEM oil 204C (test result) Mobil D 21065 200C (Specification) Mobil product was originally developed by Esso to meet GM DEXRON IID. The oil has auto box approvals ZFTE-ML 04D and ZFTE-ML 11B. Car manufacturer approvals are Mercedes MB-Approval 235.71 and Peugeot Peugeot/Citroën Automobiles S71 2102. Edited August 4, 2020 by rider (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alxns Posted September 4, 2020 Share Posted September 4, 2020 After contacting smart, mercedes, and peugeot here in France, it would seem that only peugeot is able to deliver fresh batches (product code is 9730AC used on type MB3 / 4HP14 / 4HP18 trans and "all power steering before CITROËN C5 et PEUGEOT 307 w/o GEP"). Batch number and MFG date should always be stamped bottom of the cans. If it's not it has simply faded away over time. I could not contact Lubweb directly, Racinglubes told me their 1L-cans batch is from 2013, and the batch I got from Misteroil was from 2012 (which they refunded) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rider Posted September 4, 2020 Author Share Posted September 4, 2020 Batch number and MFG date should always be stamped bottom of the cans. If it's not it has simply faded away over time. I sent a email request into Mobil UK regarding batch number references on their 1l bottles and there has been no response after the initial acknowledgement. Fukkin useless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simo2007 Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 After contacting smart, mercedes, and peugeot here in France, it would seem that only peugeot is able to deliver fresh batches (product code is 9730AC used on type MB3 / 4HP14 / 4HP18 trans and "all power steering before CITROËN C5 et PEUGEOT 307 w/o GEP"). Batch number and MFG date should always be stamped bottom of the cans. If it's not it has simply faded away over time. I could not contact Lubweb directly, Racinglubes told me their 1L-cans batch is from 2013, and the batch I got from Misteroil was from 2012 (which they refunded) So would this be the best option in order to get as similar as possible to the original v160? Can't seem to find the genuine stuff anywhere at all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alxns Posted September 20, 2020 Share Posted September 20, 2020 I think so Simo. I'm just going to put in my trans the 2012 batch of D21065 I got for free from Misteroil for now. The peugeot accessories website won't let me order for some reason, probably a bug on their side. Asking Peugeot dealers is a always an interesting conversation. -Hiya, I'd like to order some D21065 ATF please -What car do you have sir I'll let you imagine the rest of the discussion Problem is, 1L bottles are only available to order from the website apparently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rider Posted September 20, 2020 Author Share Posted September 20, 2020 (edited) I bought in 2l of the the Pug D21065 Oil for a look see. This time there is a batch number stamped onto the bottle, dated 2017. From these guys Edited September 20, 2020 by rider link added (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simo2007 Posted September 21, 2020 Share Posted September 21, 2020 Thanks guys, will get some ordered now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alxns Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 Let us know how it feels! My car is still "on hold" for maintenance at the moment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supra-love Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 I bought in 2l of the the Pug D21065 Oil for a look see. This time there is a batch number stamped onto the bottle, dated 2017. From these guys Just ordered 2ltrs of that also. Direct link here https://peugeotcitroendsparts.com/peugeot-citroen-ds-oil-9730ac/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alxns Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 (edited) If anyone is interested I have made a Google Sheet file with links and all of my research. I cleaned it up but it's still missing some links though. I'd be my pleasure to share, just drop me a PM. Edited October 19, 2020 by alxns (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supra-love Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 Mine arrived today! Few pics, 2017 dated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supra-love Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 On 9/20/2020 at 8:56 PM, rider said: I bought in 2l of the the Pug D21065 Oil for a look see. This time there is a batch number stamped onto the bottle, dated 2017. From these guys Are you now running this mate? How you finding it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rider Posted March 7, 2021 Author Share Posted March 7, 2021 My oil is still on the shelf ready to swap in when I do a pre-MOT ramp inspection but the MOT isn't due until November. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supra-love Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 (edited) 6 minutes ago, rider said: My oil is still on the shelf ready to swap in when I do a pre-MOT ramp inspection but the MOT isn't due until November. Agh sweet mate. Just wondered how it was going. Mine has just gone in pre the engine run in. So I’ll update how it feels compared to the current royal purple, I didn’t rate the royal purple to be honest Edited March 7, 2021 by Supra-love (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supra-love Posted July 1, 2021 Share Posted July 1, 2021 Thought I’d report back now that I’ve had a chance to test the D21065 - 9730AC. I’ve got to say it runs like a dream, much much better than the royal purple I had in it. Very smooth, and quick gear changes are precise now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swampy442 Posted July 1, 2021 Share Posted July 1, 2021 Thanks for the follow up 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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