rider Posted December 7, 2019 Share Posted December 7, 2019 The original Toyota 08885-01306 oil was rumoured to be Esso ATF Dexron D-21065 (a Dexron II fluid) that got rebranded to Mobil ATF Dexron D-21065 after Mobil bought out Exxon and now seems to be latest offering Mobil ATF 220. Has anyone used the Mobil ATF Dexron D-21065 or ATF 220? The reason I'm asking is I changed out the OE oil for RP Synchromax about 2k miles ago and where the box was bone dry there are now two small oil leaks so I'm thinking the switch to synthetic may be finding weaknesses in the seals and I should revert to a refined mineral product if there are still those in dexron II guise available. The Mobil oils are much cheaper than the old supplies of the Toyota oil still available from mainly USA sources; these work out about $100/l these days. Back in the day, about 10 years ago now, the equivalents to the Esso ATF Dexron D-21065 available from other suppliers were Shell ATF Dexron II D-21666 and Total Dexron II D-20356. I haven't checked if these are still available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boyne Posted December 7, 2019 Share Posted December 7, 2019 I used Mobil shc no problems, lot m cars use it in the getrag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Bullitt Posted December 7, 2019 Share Posted December 7, 2019 Have you tried speaking with Opie Oils and see what they advise? They used to be a forum trader and still offer club discount on purchases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swampy442 Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 People say good things about the Redline MT90 and shockproof oils Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKIV_Danny Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 (edited) Here u have a Fluid Challenge for the V160 https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B95WfozUALCkeGpOWm03cVgxOVU/view Regarding to this, it is recommended to use either Castrol Transmax Import ATF or Toyota T-IV which are as closest to the genuine V160 Fluid from Toyota I used this year the Castrol Transmax, which was fine. I didn't had any troubles or leaks. Maybe for next year I will go with the Toyota T-IV Edited December 8, 2019 by MKIV_Danny (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rider Posted December 8, 2019 Author Share Posted December 8, 2019 I have read some bad comments about Redline transmission oils as they push the seal swell to the upper limit which commentators say has introduced leaks. I like the look of the Castrol Transmax Import ATF from the viscosity and oil composition data so I'll research more on that. It is a dexron III fluid but that isn't going to be a problem. There doesn't seem to be much information shared with this fluid in the V160 gearbox application relative to the use of Castrol Transmax Z that I found in a quick search. I think the gist is but I haven't confirmed it yet that the Import is a synthetic blend and the Z is a fully synthetic. I don't know yet if the original OE oil which is presumed to be the Esso dexron II oil was enhanced mineral oil, part synthetic or fully synthetic. I know all synthetic oils, particularly in the 80's and 90's which is when I worked in the product development side of the oil lubricant business did have problems keeping the swell of gasket and seal materials down. This was never properly addressed by changing the swell characteristics of the oils but more by changing the gasket and seal materials to those that didn't swell as much. So, putting fully synthetic oils into old parts can lead to seals and gaskets weeping and I think that's likely what has happening with my V160. Whether that is recoverable with changing the oil to an alternative only time can tell but sometimes seals can recover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hissig Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 Did you notice an improvement in shift quality with the royal purple? Im considering swithing to rp from OEM due to very notchy shifting when box is cold Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rider Posted December 9, 2019 Author Share Posted December 9, 2019 Did you notice an improvement in shift quality with the royal purple? Im considering swithing to rp from OEM due to very notchy shifting when box is cold There are lots of comments online about improved shift with RP Syncromax but I have to say I haven't noticed any difference in the box feel changing from the OE oil to the RP oil. But my gearbox works fine with a very mechanical feel like all V160 boxes have but no notchiness or baulking. The commentators often switched to RP because they had problems with gear selection - often referred to as 3rd being temperamental. So, if you are experiencing notchiness then give it a go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hissig Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 There are lots of comments online about improved shift with RP Syncromax but I have to say I haven't noticed any difference in the box feel changing from the OE oil to the RP oil. But my gearbox works fine with a very mechanical feel like all V160 boxes have but no notchiness or baulking. The commentators often switched to RP because they had problems with gear selection - often referred to as 3rd being temperamental. So, if you are experiencing notchiness then give it a go. I think i will! My box has always felt a little notchy. especially from 1st to 2nd. feels weird thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alxns Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 (edited) Save the Getrag V160/233 and don't use Royal Purple. They don't have any manufacturer approval, which can be critical for ATFs. They even advise on their own cross reference PDF to always follow the manufacturer's recommendation. When I bought the car in 2014 it had Synchromax. I've always thought that shifting 1>2 made a very uncomfortable sound. Switching to Mobil ATF 220 in 2017 was a huge improvement. But worry no more lads: Toyota Castle Gear Oil V160 aka Mobil ATF D-21065 is now back in mass production in Europe. Since when I'm not sure, but it looks like PSA needs it for factory filling some of their newer transmissions (PSA S71 2102 spec) Toyota.jp has a Safety Data Sheet page, and ExxonMobil have a nice SDS database for each one of their markets. Comparing sheets, you will see that V160 Gear Oil and ATF D-21065 are the exact same product. D-21065 is also the only approved fluid for the early Smart Fortwo and Roadster with Getrag 717.4 transmissions (MB 231.1, MB 235.71). So this whole time, Smart/Mercedes dealers could have provided us with V160 "liquid gold" Gear Oil. I wonder if Toyota EU still replaces the V160 Fluid part number with Type T-IV ATF. Looking at viscosities, I'm not sure it's the best fluid for V160s... But it was probably their best option in Europe when D-21065 was discontinued. Edited July 25, 2020 by alxns (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supra-love Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 Save the Getrag V160/233 and don't use Royal Purple. They don't have any manufacturer approval, which is critical for ATFs. They even advise on their own cross reference PDF to always follow the manufacturer's recommendation. When I bought the car in 2014 it had Synchromax. I've always thought that shifting 1>2 made a very uncomfortable sound. Switching to Mobil ATF 220 in 2017 was a huge improvement. But worry no more lads: Toyota Castle Gear Oil V160 aka Mobil ATF D-21065 is now back in mass production in Europe. Since when I'm not sure, but it looks like PSA needs it for factory filling some of their newer transmissions (PSA S71 2102 spec) Toyota.jp has a Safety Data Sheet page, and ExxonMobil have a nice SDS database for each one of their markets. Comparing sheets, you will see that V160 Gear Oil and ATF D-21065 are the exact same product. D-21065 is also the only approved fluid for the early Smart Fortwo and Roadster with Getrag 717.4 transmissions (MB 231.1, MB 235.71). So this whole time, Smart/Mercedes dealers could have provided us with V160 "liquid gold" Gear Oil. In the end, any Dexron IID-quality ATF is probably fine... I wonder if Toyota EU still replaces the V160 Fluid part number with Type T-IV ATF. Looking at viscosities, I'm not sure it's the best fluid for V160s... But it was probably their best option in Europe when D-21065 was discontinued. Nice write up mate. ATF Dextron II D it is then I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alxns Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 (edited) OK I should not have written that. Dexron IID is an old, general spec. Stick to D21065 if you can. Let's take a look at the other D21065 approvals from ZF: ZF TE-ML 04D and ZF TE-ML 11B. ZF TE-ML 04 is for marine applications, TE-ML 11 for automotive. Section 11B of TE-ML 11 (the D21065 approval), we see that there's just a few approved products. Section 3 of TE-ML 11, ZF 5HP18 (auto trans used in some BMWs): black plate versions: only 11B-approved products are permitted. Green plate versions: "ATF according to lubricant class 11B are not permitted (exception: ZF LifeguardFluid 5)" and "Warning: use of incorrect lubricant can cause transmission failure". Apparently that transmission uses 10.5 litres of fluid, so it's probably even more critical. So what is ZF LifeguardFluid 5? There's an answer on the bimmer forums: "Up to 2005 we have used the Esso LT 71141 as factory fill fluid and as service fluid (ZF Lifeguardfluid5). From 2006 on we have changed to Pentosin ATF 1. Both fluids are approved for use in the ZF 5HPxx transmissions." Now Pentosin ATF 1 is the Fuchs Titan ATF 1. Not sure what the difference is between LT 71141 and D21065, they're both ZF 11B-approved, but there's obviously something. Mobil doesn't state that LT 71141 is of any "Dexron quality level", but D21065 is a "Dexron IID-quality" product according to them. Which makes sense because D-21065 is a Dexron IID license number. Also, LT 71141 is the only listed ATF for MB-approval 236.11. It's used for ZF 4HP20 and VW AG4 transmissions: MB 231.2 Now... Toyota (I assume together with Getrag) deemed ATF Type T-IV as an acceptable replacement for D21065/V160 Gear Oil for the european market. The Toyota tech bulletins on ATFs state that T-IV is backwards compatible with previous Toyota fluids (albeit some shouldn't be mixed), but not with Dexron II/Dexron III. Dexron-licensed products are not always backwards compatible with previous Dexron spec products, but Dexron III ones are. Now most "Dexron IID" lubricants are just "recommended", or "meet specs", or "are suitable" for Dexron IID applications, according to the fluid manufacturer, but not necessarily licensed by GM. I couldn't find anything saying that D21065 was a Toyota ATF Type T or T-II-approved product in the past. It might have even been the OEM T or T-II fluid. ATF specs can be a nightmare. Motul's own Oil Selector recommend using their Dexron IID or Dexron III ATF for the V160, but I'd never use Dexron III. I have contacted Motul France for clarification. I could find one other ATF with the PSA S71 2102 approval: Total's Fluide/Fluidmatic ATX. The product page states that it is suitable for manual transmissions requiring an ATF. I would consider this as an option, but it does not have the ZF 11B approval. It used to have a MB 236.6 approval, now replaced by MB 236.7, where listed ATFs are of the Dexron II quality level. In the same way, other ATFs described as suitable for manual transmissions are the Castrol Transmax Z, and Aral ATF LD. They both share MB-approval 236.81. I think the Castrol has been mentioned a few times. For the North American market, it's difficult to say. Neither the D21065, Fluide ATX, or Transmax Z are distributed over there, AFAIK. Obviously Toyota ATF T-IV (spec JWS3309, it's rebadged Mobil ATF3309) should be safe, but it's less viscous. Maybe Fuchs Titan ATF 1, Castrol Transmax Import Multi-Vehicle. They can use the V160 1L cans of course, but consider this: how long have these cans been sitting on shelves? ExxonMobil recommend 2, 5 or 10 years shelf life for aviation lubricants, depending on packaging. Eastman Aviation also have shelf life guidelines. It might not be as critical, but I doubt automotive products are any different. Edited July 26, 2020 by alxns (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rider Posted July 25, 2020 Author Share Posted July 25, 2020 The Mobil D21065 is a MB approved gear oil under 235.71 reference so I'd be surprised if that product isn't distributed in North America. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alxns Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 (edited) I don't think it is. MB 235.71 is only for the early smart models 450 (Fortwo) and 452 (Roadster) with Getrag 6-speed 431 AMT transmissions. Those were not sold in north america. But asking MB over there might be worth a shot, stock code for the smart gear oil is Q0022037V000000000-. Edited July 25, 2020 by alxns (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilkinson Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 Wow, this conversation is like trying to read binary. For clarity, for us dullards, I can use Mobil ATF D-21065 in the V160 if I want to use a product that is as per the manufacturers specification? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alxns Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 (edited) Wow, this conversation is like trying to read binary. For clarity, for us dullards, I can use Mobil ATF D-21065 in the V160 if I want to use a product that is as per the manufacturers specification? It is a lot to take in Yes. Basically, the only approved fluid for the Getrag 233 is the Mobil ATF D-21065 (sold as smart 450/452 gear oil, Nissan BNR34 special gear oil, and Toyota V160 gear oil. There's probably a Peugeot/Citroën reference too). When D-21065 was discontinued, Toyota EU replaced the V160 oil part number (old post from 2009) with Mobil ATF3309 (sold as Toyota ATF Type T-IV), but this might have changed. Edited July 25, 2020 by alxns (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilkinson Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 Thanks for clarifying Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supra-love Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 Doesn’t look like anyone in Uk stocks Mobil ATF D-21065 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alxns Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 I think it would be worth discussing with the official Mobil distributors in the UK and Ireland, given the amount of Supra and R34 GTR you guys have. Even Toyota EU or Nissan directly In the mean time you can try Mercedes/Smart. And I'm sure some French or Belgian resellers will ship across the Channel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supra-love Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 I think it would be worth discussing with the official Mobil distributors in the UK and Ireland, given the amount of Supra and R34 GTR you guys have. Even Toyota EU or Nissan directly In the mean time you can try Mercedes/Smart. And I'm sure some French or Belgian resellers will ship across the Channel Looks like transmax atf is next best thing here!? There’s too much talk about it online https://thesupraregistry.com/pdf/The-Great-V160-Fluid-Challenge.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alxns Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 Transmax Import is Castrol's universal/multi-vehicle ATF for japanese cars. I wouldn't use it because the range of applications is too large. I think the oil analysis they did was a nice initiative. Seeing the different elements for each product is definitely interesting. But they didn't really go too deep into why the OEM fluid is so good, and what approvals each ATF might have. Too bad they didn't get hold of some D21065. Manufacturing dates should have also been considered because older fluids might have had their properties and composition altered by the time the sample was analyzed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supra-love Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 Transmax Import is Castrol's universal/multi-vehicle ATF for japanese cars. I wouldn't use it because the range of applications is too large. I think the oil analysis they did was a nice initiative. Seeing the different elements for each product is definitely interesting. But they didn't really go too deep into why the OEM fluid is so good, and what approvals each ATF might have. Too bad they didn't get hold of some D21065. Manufacturing dates should have also been considered because older fluids might have had their properties and composition altered by the time the sample was analyzed. I’ve sent a message to toyota to hopefully get some D21065 I was going to get the oem v160 toyota oil but being as you said it’s probably very old and lost most of its properties unless it’s for life oil? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alxns Posted July 26, 2020 Share Posted July 26, 2020 (edited) Most properties I don't know, ideally you would want to do an oil analysis and compare with some fresh D21065 Belgian ale, see what has changed If Toyota can't help you, go to Mercedes/Smart, tell them you'd like some Gear Oil for an old 6-speed Smart, part no Q0022037V000000000. It's the exact same ATF. Or get D21065 from Lubweb on ebay, they're near Calais so I think they will ship to the UK. Edited July 26, 2020 by alxns (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rider Posted July 26, 2020 Author Share Posted July 26, 2020 Lubweb have their own website where prices seem much lower than the eBay store price. 1l of gearbox oil for under Euro10 on their website. Whether UK shipping is available off their website someone would need to try buying and see. There is also a Febi Bilstein product that meets the MB235.71 spec, being also German it may even be the OE oil? Interestingly, Alibaba also list the Mobil D21065 so fake oil could be an issue buying outside of the authorised dealer network and these are expensive gearboxes to risk recycled chip oil going in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supra-love Posted July 26, 2020 Share Posted July 26, 2020 Just contacted smart/Mercedes so see what they come back with! I see the Febi version and I assume it’ll work the same but I will try and use the Mobil brand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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