Hybrid/highflow twin turbos VS small single turbo setup

[samdale]

I'm in a similar position, also with a vvti car. Already have the CW intercooler but the next steps are where the money can really stack up.

 

Vvti throttle body gets swapped out when you go standalone. Most swap to a standard TT TB so you'll have to find one of those. Add the price of a new decent ECU and you're basically clearing £3k just for a remap. That's before you've got to any of the wooshy fun bits. If you can find one or he does another run, a CW intercooler is ~£1k new.

 

I really like the idea of staying TT too though again Tim's kit is mighty tempting.

 

Munro racing in Australia look like they've done some interesting stuff with twins, but again strong money. I seems to remember someone on here had bought a set from them but haven't fitted them yet. Maybe they've gone off the idea and will sell them to me for a good price ;)

[Frank Bullitt]

Ideally I just want a good setup street car, nothing crazy with 1000bhp. Honestly I'll be happy with 500-600 usable and reliable power to have some fun with. I don't really have a budget in mind but I wouldn't want to overspend on things that are overkill for my intended build. I can't really do the work myself as I don't believe I am knowledgeable enough so I can see myself spending more on labour unfortunately.

 

I've spoken to Tim at TB about his single setup after I purchased my initial decat pipes off him so I know his quality of work is superb. Will look into it further if I do decide to go for a single setup 100%

 

I have the factory turbo big brakes front & rear but will look into refreshing them as they need it, along with braided lines and better fluid. I too believe stopping power is as equally important as engine power/speed lol

 

At the moment I have eibach springs with standard shock absorbers but it seems the bilstein b6 are a good option?

 

Currently running the factory A03B diff, may look into a big diff or OS giken so the power can be handled, what else do you mean by rear end?

 

Yeah I wanted to run some extra cooling like water injection just to help keep the engine on the cool safe side more so than making extra power.

 

Cast manifold seems perfect as I want that deep 2jz tone and quick spool.

 

Thanks for all your help dude, really appreciate it and I'm sure I will be needing more and more advice/help lol

 

The TT hybrid setup is still on the table until I weigh up my options and see what is best for me but for now I'm trying to get as much info as I can

 

Is that 500-600 at the crank or at the wheels? Also, are you looking to make the most power possible for your outlay (bang for buck) or are you happy to invest a lot, for little gain to get the result you want?

 

If you are still running the rubber OEM brake lines and don't know if they have been changed, it would be worth your while checking them when you are next working on the car. They started perishing years ago and quite a few members found they had been running on borrowed time when swapping over to braided.

 

Eibach on the B6 will provide a firm ride but there have been a few B6 fitment issues recently. Sorry to sound like a broken record but have a chat with the guru who resides in deepest darkest Shropshire. The B6 fitment issues are mentioned in this thread - http://www.mkivsupra.net/vbb/showthr...rs-Bilstein-B6

 

I don't think you would need to go with the 220 diff. The smaller should be fine as long as it's refurbished and the torsen swapped out for the OS Giken.

 

When I talk about the rear end, I mean diff ratio. Hot rod tuning 101. The higher ratios will give better torque and acceleration compared with lower ratios. But lower ratios produce higher top speeds and better fuel economy. Higher ratios mean the engine has to run faster to achieve a given speed. Lower ratios allow the engine to run more economically to maintain that given speed. So the manual diff ratios are considered low and the auto and NA are considered high. You can also mess about with tyre profile sizes to achieve this depending on wheel size and offset.

 

Water injection is great, don't worry about going too fancy. Set it up on a pressure switch to read off the intake so it comes on over 1 bar. Go for a true 50/50 mix of deionised water and Methanol done on weight not volume as the density is different. That said, it only increases the water content slightly so the mix isn't as strong if you decide to do it the other way.

 

No problem regarding the help

 

Hybrid turbo build quality has improved over the years so I would expect a set to last as long as they aren't subjected to anti-lag or 2-step.

 

As you have the VVT-i you have the added bonus of the intake camshaft adjusting to suit low down torque making you quicker off the mark. If you increase the size of the OEM turbos you will add lag, how much depends on how big you go but the VVT-i can (if tuned correctly) help minimise the impact. Remember, no matter what, if you go hybrid or single, you will loose some bottom end grunt when comparing it to BPU OEM twins.

 

Our BPU VVT-i has a Syvecs S6Plus fitted along with a few extras. She is currently producing 414ft.lbs of torque by 2,900rpm and 369 RHHP at 5,730 rpm on OEM turbos mapped around 1.1 bar. My mapper couldn't go beyond this because of the OEM waste gate causing boost creep.

 

You don't have to swap the VVT-i TB but it is terrible tech and hard to map correctly if you want the ECU controlling it. It runs on a clutch based system with gearing powered by a DC motor. Throttle response isn't linear because of a heavy spring which returns the motor back to closed if it is not powered. It's also alot slower compared to these new Bosch DBW TBs. So you can stay with what is fitted, go with the oldskool pre-facelift TB set-up or go down a true DBW route which means using a Bosch unit from a Porcshe, making an adaptor so it bolts directly to the intake and fitting the DWB pedal.

 

I went with the true DBW mod in 2015. I couldn't recommend it highly enough and as you have a manual it's a no brainer. Just remember, if you go with the DBW mod and it goes tits up, you will need a recovery truck but the response and ability for your mapper to fine tune it is worth it.

 

Forget about the Munro kit, it's all hogged out for maximum flow which is great if you want a car that comes alive over 4,500-5,000 rpm.

[Jellybean]

Look into PHR Street Torque kit , apart from quality and fitment , big benefit, it has provision to bolt up the OE cat for MOT time

Before anybody starts harping on it is only LHD fitment , PHR have a RHD Shell in their shop to ensure it fits correctly.

 

ECU , I would not restrict yourself to a Syvecs ;talk to your tuner , no issue using Link, EMU Black ; whatever they are comfortable with , the 2JZ is a very basic engine in comparison to modern tech , alot of the capabilities on the high end ECU's are redundant when it comes to a 2JZ

 

EMU Black , just brought out a VVTI PNP adapter about 2 weeks ago

 

https://ecumasterusa.com/products/2jz-vvti-pnp-for-emu-black?_pos=1&_sid=c1a77b17a&_ss=r&variant=30987871092873&fbclid=IwAR1F4NJF2cYm9vxoOJ9fGyPTd9eidOiJvoEZ3eJARCfoY0zAY1qE8_iZzow

Edited November 15, 2019 by Jellybean (see edit history)

[Littler]

You are searching for a setup that I also looked into for quite a long time. Although I never got the opportinunity to complete the build I did learn a lot and got some great advice on parts to search. Appreciate this advice may be a little out dated now however will pass on what I was advised.

 

Some tubular single setups have a cast manifold response but is still not quite there. In terms of the cast setup there were two options to pursue:

- Source an Arnout manifold - which I fortunately did, a lot more material and better design (words from Chris Wilson):

- Treadstone manifold with some time porting it out for better flow - Tim @ TB Developments & DanDan ran a ported treadstone manifold

 

The above combined with the likes of a CW SMIC will be a very good setup, I know Bignum ran a CW SMIC on his single setup for some years until he wanted more power (believe that was around the 600bhp mark)

 

If these are still the current model turbos I'd consider a Garrett GTX35R or Precision 6266.

 

Regardless of the above however definitely look at what Frank has said re diff, suspension, tyres and wheel setup as there are vast investment areas for low down high torque.

 

Some of the info I have given maybe dated though as I haven't been following the latest builds and tech like I used to.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Littler (see edit history)

[Scooter]

Just to add a contrarian view, I've looked at your old threads and your TT6 is a lovely late, and therefore rare, beast and might be best left as is?

 

It probably means you aren't up for swapping it, but just thinking that with the price rises we are reaching another era where the stock/stockish TT's aren't much (if any) cheaper than the Singles, certainly not cheaper by the cost to go single?

 

I think you need to consider what the overall costs will be with labour and then compare it to perhaps buying a £25K single if you've space for two? Depending on your spec/parts/ECU/mapping etc etc you could get up into 5 figures converting yours? Obviously buying another is a much higher initial cost but likely all the money is recoverable, and you may even see a higher appreciation of your current car in the mid/long term and I'd think the worse the single would do is stay at the purchase price?

[Rashed]

Almost forgot about this thread lol

 

So after a lot of umming and arring and reading through the replies here and talking to a couple of tuners and my garage that will be doing all the work I have FINALLY decided to stay with my original plan of taking the hybrid route. The cons for me are that I won't get that 2JZ sound I wanted and it probably will cost me close to how much a small single setup would of cost that would make more power. However the pros are it keeps everything looking very OEM and discreet. Plus as I have mentioned before I'm quite happy with the power delivery at the moment but it would be nice to have more of it if you guys know what I mean.

 

Going to keep it sweet and simple, pair of hybrid turbos, standalone ecu of some sort, uprated fuelling, CW SMIC and start focusing on brakes and handling and other things that need refreshing as its a 20 year old car after all.

 

I'd like to thank everyone for their input and ideas as its much appreciated!

[Foxx]

Would love this setup too, be interested how it all goes [emoji106]

 

 

[Rashed]

Would love this setup too, be interested how it all goes [emoji106]

 

/QUOTE]

 

Thanks dude, will keep everyone updated. Maybe start a build thread of some sort

[Rashed]

Me again guys, could everyone or anyone throw me places that do hybrid turbos for the VVTi 2JZ-GTE TT Supra? So far all I have found is the Whifbitz hybrids, Midland Turbos would be happy to do them and I'm waiting on a reply from AET.

I have found Suprastore and Munro racing outside of the UK.

 

Also what setup i.e. sizing/wheels would be good to go for? New to all of this hybrid turbo setup so excuse my lack of knowledge.

 

Any ideas or help would be much appreciated

[Shane]

Just out of curiousity really, if you are going standalone with hybrids, presumably not sequential?

[Supra-love]

Me again guys, could everyone or anyone throw me places that do hybrid turbos for the VVTi 2JZ-GTE TT Supra? So far all I have found is the Whifbitz hybrids, Midland Turbos would be happy to do them and I'm waiting on a reply from AET.

I have found Suprastore and Munro racing outside of the UK.

 

Also what setup i.e. sizing/wheels would be good to go for? New to all of this hybrid turbo setup so excuse my lack of knowledge.

 

Any ideas or help would be much appreciated

 

Midland turbo will do them, and they are well known for great rebuilds and upgrades etc, will pick up and deliver for free

 

https://www.midlandturbo.com/

[Rashed]

Just out of curiousity really, if you are going standalone with hybrids, presumably not sequential?

 

Will be keeping the sequential system in place.

I'd rather sequential instead of TTC or might as well go single.

[Rashed]

Midland turbo will do them, and they are well known for great rebuilds and upgrades etc, will pick up and deliver for free

 

https://www.midlandturbo.com/

 

Yeah so far it seems Midland Turbos or AET Turbos offer the best indepth services for hybrid units. Both have very good reputations in hybrid turbos.

[Darren]

I went down this route years ago a full BPU vvti running 1.2 was a very quick day to day car. I then fitted hybrids and 550 injectors @ 1.3. I’m not convinced it was worth the cost!!

 

Also the hybrids failed within a few thousand miles.

 

I’d go single or just go full BPU.

[Rashed]

I went down this route years ago a full BPU vvti running 1.2 was a very quick day to day car. I then fitted hybrids and 550 injectors @ 1.3. I’m not convinced it was worth the cost!!

 

Also the hybrids failed within a few thousand miles.

 

I’d go single or just go full BPU.

 

What is full BPU on a vvti Supra? So far I have 255 walbro fuel pump, Chris Wilsons FCD, whifbitz SMIC hardpipe kit, TB developments 1st & 2nd decat pipes with restrictor ring, electronic boost controller, whifbitz 4" single box exhaust system, hks intake with blocked BOV. Am I just missing an uprated sidemount intercooler, standalone ECU and higher flow injectors? Obviously a map/tune also.

 

Who did your hybrid turbos if you don't mind me asking?

 

It will be cost effective to go single which I completely agree with but I really want to retain the OEM sequential setup which would be ideal for my driving style and build of a street car.

[Boyne]

Imo your crazy going down hybrid route, I'm doing big maintaince at min full respray engine gearbox out, I was hoping my UK twins were in need of work so as to go small single but there perfect, I'm still considering going small small single sxe257mm, i think this turbo would get me into the 500shp and tq, and just a little bit more then good bpu set up with super fast response.

[Frank Bullitt]

The hybrids you are talking about will do nothing more than ruin the drivability of your Supra. TTC is the only way you can successfully run them.

 

In the early part of 2000 HKS sold adapters to make the GT2530 turbos work with the stock manifold and stock piping. These turbos were standard upgrades and direct bolt-ins for the GT-R and 300ZX of the same time period. They are also internal wastegate turbos like the OEMs so there wasn't any need to modify the manifold. Small pipes were also fab'd up to route the exhaust gas back just as it does in the OEM setup.

 

The one thing they couldn't ever overcome was the "pre-spool" of the second turbo. When the valve opened up to allow the exhaust gas to spin the second turbo there would be a "shock" to the second turbo turbine shaft. At transition there is a massive dip (loss of TQ & HP) then it builds back up. Over time this shock to the turbine shaft will cause the second turbo to fail. The system/set-up always worked much better in TTC but made less power and and was no more responsive than a small single on a log-style cast iron manifold.

 

At the time those turbos were circa $1800 each. Once the turbo blew the cost of replacing it was so prohibitive people just went single.

 

If you want to stay sequential be happy with your BPU set up as it stands. If you still have the urge to tinker at the most I would rebuild your turbos with a modern compressor wheel the same size as stock, replacing your cast turbine wheel then running higher boost and being happy with that set up.

 

If you want to crack 500hp and have a fast drivable car, cast manifold and either the GTX3576R GEN II or the GTX3582R GEN II.

Edited December 12, 2019 by Frank Bullitt (see edit history)

[Samurai 20V]

Anyone tried Munro turbos?

 

The stage 3 look decent value, and can stay sequential..

 

I can't find any testimonials on the reliability though.

[Frank Bullitt]

anyone tried munro turbos?

 

The stage 3 look decent value, and can stay sequential..

 

I can't find any testimonials on the reliability though.

 

Laggy.

[Mike2JZ]

Don't forget with hybrids that whilst it's all well and good getting a larger compressor/turbine in such a small package, not many people deal with the restrictive nature of the rest of the factory pipework, mainly exhaust side. Jspec turbo setup is the worst for this, better on Euro/US spec turbos as pipework is larger in places.

 

It's a hard task to port or enlargen the exhaust side as a lot of the components are cast, but if ignored then the combo of higher boost pressures, more airflow etc just results in making EGT's and running temps go through the roof.

 

It's fine for the dyno or a pull here or there, but if you actually plan on driving your over a prolonged period then you will run into this issue.

 

Each standalone hybrid car we've done at work recently has a host EGT & temperature based strategies to monitor and combat this, but I've seen a few cases where all the fuel in the world cannot prevent EGT's from going over a safe level when driven hard as restriction in exhaust side is too large. Sequential setups understandably worse in terms of restriction versus a TTC setup.

 

These restrictions & temperatures can be averted to a degree by using e85, but for 95% of the hybrid owners in the UK. This is not a practical solution for day to day driving. Meth injection can help, but gains no where near the same performance / safety as e85.

 

I would only bother with steel hybrids if I had a set of jspec ceramics that were broken, or wanted to increase reliability in the long run whilst still making the same power as BPU.

 

We are not in the right country for daily driving e85 balls out hybrid high powered setups in my opinion. Single turbo conversion is simpler, more thrilling & easier power gains whilst on 98 octane pump fuels.

[Shane]

Will be keeping the sequential system in place.

I'd rather sequential instead of TTC or might as well go single.

 

Thats what I was thinking and behind my question. I have not seen any sequential standalone set ups, not to say they don't exist or it cant be done, chuck enough money at it and it could be I am sure, but not sure how well it would compare to the OEM sequential system.

[Swampy442]

Its been done with a Link before, switchable TTC or sequential

[Darren]

What is full BPU on a vvti Supra? So far I have 255 walbro fuel pump, Chris Wilsons FCD, whifbitz SMIC hardpipe kit, TB developments 1st & 2nd decat pipes with restrictor ring, electronic boost controller, whifbitz 4" single box exhaust system, hks intake with blocked BOV. Am I just missing an uprated sidemount intercooler, standalone ECU and higher flow injectors? Obviously a map/tune also.

 

Who did your hybrid turbos if you don't mind me asking?

 

It will be cost effective to go single which I completely agree with but I really want to retain the OEM sequential setup which would be ideal for my driving style and build of a street car.

 

Jps in Milton Keynes. We are going back many years tho!!!

 

I’ve never heard of a vvti needing a restrictor ring.....I don’t have one it never goes over 1.2 bar. Was talked about many times years ago.

 

My boost controller isn’t working at mo and mine sits at 1.2. Need to get that looked at.

[Darren]

Here’s my spec from many many years Ago:

 

Engine Specifications:

VVTI Running @ 1.3 bar

 

Turbocharger & Induction:

Stage 3 Hybrids

HKS Induction

HKS FMIC

 

Fuel, Tuning & ECU:

550 injectors

Apexi SAFC

Blitz Boost Controller

 

Exhaust:

Full Decat

Nur Spec

 

Drivetrain:

Tiptronic Automatic

Racelogic Traction Control

 

Weight Reduction & Transfer:

N/A

 

Suspension, Wheels, Tires & Brakes:

Racing Hart 19" wheels

UK Front Brakes

UK Rear Brakes

[Frank Bullitt]

Jps in Milton Keynes. We are going back many years tho!!!

 

You mean Leon Green?

 

This will bring back some memories from 2005 - https://www.fastcar.co.uk/cars/1050bhp-jps-toyota-supra-mk4/

Edited December 14, 2019 by Frank Bullitt
Link added. (see edit history)