bayside_supra Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 Hi everyone I have had my single setup for about 2.5 years now, time to go further. I am thinking to push the bottom end more, if it breaks I will build it, rather than build it now. I want to push for as close to 800whp as possible, and I want as fast spool as I can get. To do this I am thinking about changing the turbo, current Borg Warner is a journal bearing, so going Precision Gen2, upgrading the fuel system (another pump and bigger injectors), new intake manifold and 272 cams. I also want to raise the rev limit a little so new springs and retainers. Might need a new clutch too I guess. Current setup is this and putting out just over 700fwhp: Garage Whifbitz twin wastegate turbo kit with a Borg warner S366 SXE turbo Syvecs S6 ecu Toucan display Walbro 450lph fuel pump ASNU 850cc injectors Ngk iridium spark plugs Turbosmart raceport BOV SPEC stage 2+ clutch SPEC lightened flywheel Whifbitz 264 cams Whifbitz 4" intercooler Whifbitz 3" downpipe into 4" exhaust Advise I would like is mainly on the turbo. Does anyone know how a Precision 6466 1.0ar would compare for power and spool against a 6870 0.87ar? I want as quick spool as possible but I think eventually my power goals are going to go beyond the 6466. So the 6870 with the smaller housing would be better as I could always upgrade the housing at a later date, rather than the whole turbo. Any advice on any other things I should upgrade or consider with this new setup? I know a few others are running this sort of power on the stock block, I do not use the car much so I am just thinking to save the £7k on the bottom end for a later stage. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AC93 Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 £7k on the bottom end? Surely forged pistons/rods and rod bolts, polished crank would come in for under half that? Unless you're going stroker kit .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swampy442 Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 800 whp is nearly 1000 actual hp, you'll definitely need injectors, fuel pump, probably a clutch for starters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Bailey Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 Precision 6870 1.00 A/R ASNU 1500cc Injectors 2x Walbro 485lph Are you planning on running ethanol or just pump fuel? Ethanol will defiantly help, but you’d need fuel lines, injectors, pumps that can cope with ethanol. Also I’d say go for a 4” downpipe from turbo back. It has been proven the stock intake can handle 1000bhp, but gains are to be had from an aftermarket intake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
and1c Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 £7k on the bottom end? Surely forged pistons/rods and rod bolts, polished crank would come in for under half that? Unless you're going stroker kit .. Labour is always a strong part of the bill in a proper engine build. If you do any head work etc, valves cams the price soon balloons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Ven Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 Hi everyone I have had my single setup for about 2.5 years now, time to go further. I am thinking to push the bottom end more, if it breaks I will build it, rather than build it now. I want to push for as close to 800whp as possible, and I want as fast spool as I can get. To do this I am thinking about changing the turbo, current Borg Warner is a journal bearing, so going Precision Gen2, upgrading the fuel system (another pump and bigger injectors), new intake manifold and 272 cams. I also want to raise the rev limit a little so new springs and retainers. Might need a new clutch too I guess. Current setup is this and putting out just over 700fwhp: Garage Whifbitz twin wastegate turbo kit with a Borg warner S366 SXE turbo Syvecs S6 ecu Toucan display Walbro 450lph fuel pump ASNU 850cc injectors Ngk iridium spark plugs Turbosmart raceport BOV SPEC stage 2+ clutch SPEC lightened flywheel Whifbitz 264 cams Whifbitz 4" intercooler Whifbitz 3" downpipe into 4" exhaust Advise I would like is mainly on the turbo. Does anyone know how a Precision 6466 1.0ar would compare for power and spool against a 6870 0.87ar? I want as quick spool as possible but I think eventually my power goals are going to go beyond the 6466. So the 6870 with the smaller housing would be better as I could always upgrade the housing at a later date, rather than the whole turbo. Any advice on any other things I should upgrade or consider with this new setup? I know a few others are running this sort of power on the stock block, I do not use the car much so I am just thinking to save the £7k on the bottom end for a later stage. Cheers Would be interested to see your power graph for your current setup if you please. Going with the 362sxe but just like to see different setups for comparison Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Ven Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 Only other issue i have heard about is physical torque the stock bottom end can take. You may have to have the fueling done to reduce torque or rods will be bending. As far as setup. I think you have hit most items on your list. If you are after saving money aswell, just get springs and not retainers for your valve springs. An extra £200 on titanium spring caps for no real gain unless you are planning on raising the rev limit alot. If you are after the best spool possible then keep with the stock intake. I have seen back to back dyno runs with stock to aftermarket intakes. Aftermarket will make you hit bigger numbers later on in the rev range and overall higher hp but sacrifice spool by nearly as much as 500rpm in some cases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayside_supra Posted July 2, 2019 Author Share Posted July 2, 2019 Thanks for the replies guys. Surprised at the lack of spool on the new intake. I have an SSI one ready to go in, is this a bad move? I have been thinking about running ethanol but I can’t see an easy way to get the stuff. Any advice one that? Is meth injection worth looking into as it seems a bit more readily available? The idea I had was the 6870 0.87ar with 1050 injectors and a second 450 fuel pump. Will this be enough fuel? The £7k estimate was made up of around £4K in parts, £1k machine shop and £2k labour. Sorry for all the questions in one post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Ven Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 Thanks for the replies guys. Surprised at the lack of spool on the new intake. I have an SSI one ready to go in, is this a bad move? I have been thinking about running ethanol but I can’t see an easy way to get the stuff. Any advice one that? Is meth injection worth looking into as it seems a bit more readily available? The idea I had was the 6870 0.87ar with 1050 injectors and a second 450 fuel pump. Will this be enough fuel? The £7k estimate was made up of around £4K in parts, £1k machine shop and £2k labour. Sorry for all the questions in one post. /QUOTE] Intake : you will find the stock one will limit your power if your going for 800whp and will drop off earlier in the revs. The aftermarket one will help get your goal easier but again you wont have the reponse or quick spool as the stock one. Its a play off with what you want most. My dad used to buy ethanol in 200L barrels and have it delivered to the house. But not sure how he aquired it nor how expensive it was. Wmi is more readily available but... needs its own map for running the stuff. And needs to be topped up regular. There isnt many that run wmi in the supra scene that i know of. On tfsi cars they run it to keep the intake valves clean as direct injection cokes up the intake valves. It needs to be monitored better than running ethanol and make sure its working correctly 100% of the time. I would think 2x450 walbros should be more than enough, with new bigger fuel lines from the tank. Injector size: i know some people prefer to run bigger injectors 1200-1400 sizes but i think 1050’s might be right on the limit. Better off going sightly larger if you said before you may build the bottom end in future. Kinda future proofs your injectors and will still work well. costing wise: i do all my own machining, engine work and everything else so for me cost is just parts. I also try and get stuff second hand. Can save a bit of money there Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooter Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 I think you are mad! and "Dad mode" putting this link in for balance........includes many comments from those who have been there and done that. http://www.mkivsupra.net/vbb/showthread.php?320460-What-s-a-Street-Supra-s-Sweet-Spot-Power-Wise&highlight=sweet+spot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayside_supra Posted July 5, 2019 Author Share Posted July 5, 2019 So what parts would I need to look at for the bottom end to hold my goal? I don’t know that much about this side of things, I am guessing there are various degrees of building the block? I don’t like that idea of having to tone down the torque to save the engine, I think that’s why I have an issue with spool now. If you need to to do pistons etc to handle the torque then maybe I should. But I am limited to about £10k total for this update, any advice on how that money is best spent would be amazing. This is my current graph on a hub dyno... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Style Posted July 5, 2019 Share Posted July 5, 2019 Bottom end would be updated bearings (ACL or King), a set of rods that could probably do with the ARP 625+ rod bolt (most come with the 2000 bolt and limit power slightly), a set of forged pistons, ARP head studs and main bolts. That’s about all you’ll need for the bottom end. Slap in a set of 262 cams, fresh gaskets and fluids...jobs a good un’ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayside_supra Posted July 5, 2019 Author Share Posted July 5, 2019 Ok so for pricing purposes I have looked at these, am I on the right track? Anything missing? http://www.garagewhifbitz.co.uk/toyota/supra/engine-components/bottom-end-parts/acl-2jz-race-conrod-bearing-set.html http://www.garagewhifbitz.co.uk/toyota/supra/engine-components/bottom-end-parts/acl-2jz-race-main-bearing-set.html http://www.garagewhifbitz.co.uk/toyota/supra/engine-components/bottom-end-parts/brian-crower-3445.html http://www.garagewhifbitz.co.uk/toyota/supra/engine-components/bottom-end-parts/manley-2jz-pistons.html http://www.garagewhifbitz.co.uk/toyota/supra/engine-components/bottom-end-parts/arp-803.html http://www.garagewhifbitz.co.uk/toyota/supra/engine-components/bottom-end-parts/arp-1071.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Ven Posted July 5, 2019 Share Posted July 5, 2019 I am now in the same boat as you for rebuilding and forgong the bottom end. But i rekon i can do all the lot for under £1200. Just gotta look around for the best prices. I find whifbits slightly pricy compared to some other places. All i will say is look around for the best prices. Money saved is always a bonus! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayside_supra Posted July 5, 2019 Author Share Posted July 5, 2019 I am now in the same boat as you for rebuilding and forgong the bottom end. But i rekon i can do all the lot for under £1200. Just gotta look around for the best prices. I find whifbits slightly pricy compared to some other places. All i will say is look around for the best prices. Money saved is always a bonus! /QUOTE] Fair enough, is my list of parts complete though? Have I missed anything? It’s not as many bits as I thought Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted July 5, 2019 Share Posted July 5, 2019 I am now in the same boat as you for rebuilding and forgong the bottom end. But i rekon i can do all the lot for under £1200. Just gotta look around for the best prices. I find whifbits slightly pricy compared to some other places. All i will say is look around for the best prices. Money saved is always a bonus! /QUOTE] Cant see that myself, just in parts you're going to be £2k+. Also, whifbitz offer price matching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Style Posted July 6, 2019 Share Posted July 6, 2019 Yeah you’ll be lucky to pick up rods and pistons alone for £1200 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayside_supra Posted July 17, 2019 Author Share Posted July 17, 2019 So just to update I pushed the button yesterday on the following: Precision 6870 Gen2 BB with small AR Another Walbro 450 with twin fuel lines 269 billet cams CNC race ported head with upgraded valves and guides, dual springs etc... 1300c Injector Dynamics Bullet cam tensioner, ATI crank dampener, crank ARP bolt (all Titan) ARP head studs Head shims, engine gaskets, oil cooler 5" intercooler 4" downpipe plus a few other bits Should make a bit of difference! Then I will put up a for sale thread for all the tasty bits that come off the car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayside_supra Posted November 13, 2019 Author Share Posted November 13, 2019 Coming back to this, new setup is now in. Top end of the engine is complete and I’m very happy with how it looks. Went flex fuel as well as I found a source for ethanol. Mapping was a failure today as one of the fuel pumps was playing up. All fixed now but have to wait till mid December for another slot (the joys of running syvecs) Romain suggested we limit the power to around 700whp to save the engine, plus I’m on the limits of the current clutch. As I have some time to decide now, I’ve got a couple of options to consider. I can stick with the plan and push the bottom end to Romain’s suggested level, but can I go more than 700whp? I’m also thinking about just doing the bottom end too while I’m waiting. As with everything though, money is the problem here. I’ve seen a couple of places claiming to be able to supply a forged block for £3k ish, but a lot of parts seem to be missing from their lists; oil pump etc... I keep looking at what I would need and always end up around £7k plus a clutch. Does anyone know of a cheaper way? If it’s that much I’m gonna have to hold off. Decisions decisions.... Anyone selling a used built block???? [emoji23] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Reviews Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 Personally, I'm more of a calculated risk taker, so with the knowledge that people in the states, and some in the UK, have run circa 1000hp out of these engines, for many years without fail, on a standard bottom end, I'd be inclined to push it to around at least 900hp... but as I said, that's only because I don't mind taking the odd calculated risk here and there. Having said that, it all depends on your appetite for risk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Ven Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 Have you thought about just sending your bottom end away for having it forged? For pistons, rods, and bearings to handle up to 1000whp you will be looking at £13-1400 in parts. Possibly less. Where abouts in the uk are you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Bailey Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 We are 712whp estimated 853bhp flywheel on a relatively stock rebuilt engine, stock pistons, rods, crank. Just have ARP hardware throughout, Clevite race bearings, 264 cams. That was mapped by Lee at SRD. I’d follow the advice of Romain, he knows what’s he’s doing. Don’t go chasing numbers as could end up more expensive. 700whp will be a monster! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Style Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 (edited) Personally, I'm more of a calculated risk taker, so with the knowledge that people in the states, and some in the UK, have run circa 1000hp out of these engines, for many years without fail, on a standard bottom end, I'd be inclined to push it to around at least 900hp... but as I said, that's only because I don't mind taking the odd calculated risk here and there. Having said that, it all depends on your appetite for risk. Got any links to these 1000hp cars? I’ve never seen someone run 1000hp reliably on a stock bottom end. The only one I’ve come across had 1 good hero pull in it for a dyno printout and was then wound right back down too 800 before it went bye byes. 800 is the absolute safe limit on these engines if they’re still unopened from new, especially at 25+ years old. Anything above that and you could bend a rod at the first opportunity. Have you thought about just sending your bottom end away for having it forged? For pistons, rods, and bearings to handle up to 1000whp you will be looking at £13-1400 in parts. Possibly less. Where abouts in the uk are you? /QUOTE] I’ve just had my bottom end rebuilt and the absolute cheapest 1000hp capable combo I could find was getting closer to £1600. You’d ideally be looking for ARP hardware to hold your bottom end together, so need to consider that too. The argument over billet mains and 625+ rod bolts starts to creep in as well, but you could do without as long as you don’t want to rev up past 7k or so. I also found that a lot of entry level forged pistons on the market ideally need the beefier wrist pin added as well, bringing their price up to nearer £750-£800 on their own. It’s a slippery slope if you’re chasing numbers We are 712whp estimated 853bhp flywheel on a relatively stock rebuilt engine, stock pistons, rods, crank. Just have ARP hardware throughout, Clevite race bearings, 264 cams. That was mapped by Lee at SRD. I’d follow the advice of Romain, he knows what’s he’s doing. Don’t go chasing numbers as could end up more expensive. 700whp will be a monster! Best approach right here! It’s just a number at the end of the day Edited November 14, 2019 by Style (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Reviews Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 Got any links to these 1000hp cars? I’ve never seen someone run 1000hp reliably on a stock bottom end. The only one I’ve come across had 1 good hero pull in it for a dyno printout and was then wound right back down too 800 before it went bye byes. 800 is the absolute safe limit on these engines if they’re still unopened from new, especially at 25+ years old. Anything above that and you could bend a rod at the first opportunity. Check out the US Supra forum. There are plenty of examples on there. I believe JamieP also ran 1000hp on a stock bottom end for a period of time in the early days. Also, what would be the penalty for bending a rod? Having to rebuild the bottom end? But then again, I never really suggested running 1000hp... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Bailey Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 Check out the US Supra forum. There are plenty of examples on there. I believe JamieP also ran 1000hp on a stock bottom end for a period of time in the early days. Also, what would be the penalty for bending a rod? Having to rebuild the bottom end? But then again, I never really suggested running 1000hp... I wouldn’t believe any of the quoted figures you see in the US, Jamie ran circa 850bhp on a stock engine before it went bang if I remember correctly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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