sidewaysdan Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 So I’ve been working as a subcontractor for the same company for the last 6 years and yesterday they went into administration but they still owe me nearly £10k for work I’ve done over the last couple of months. I’ve never been in this situation before so was just wondering has anyone been in a situation like this and what’s the likelihood good of me getting my money.. Thanks Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ark Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 Don't ask us, ask a lawyer. Seriously, lawyer up and get your claim in with the administrators quick before whatever cash is left goes elsewhere, but be prepared for the possibility of getting nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott.wild Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 Get your claim in with the administrators, make sure all your documentation/invoices are ok. I wouldn't expect much though as their priority is employees/pensions first, tax, suppliers, contractors, landlords. Check your contract is in good order as well, are you inside IR35? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorling Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 No point in spending money on a lawyer on top of lost earnings. The administrators will contact you and all creditors in due course and you will make your claim. It is easy to do, just fill in the form and attach copies of unpaid invoices. It's an entirely functional process and there is no shortcut to you getting paid ahead of any other creditor. If they went into administration suddenly and without any warning or rumours, the likelihood is that it has been planned for some time and may have been done to protect the interests of the owners ahead of those of the creditors. Have you noticed, for example, if recently they have taken longer than usual to settle your invoices? Sadly administrators sometimes act in collusion with owners to facilitate this, to the point of allowing the owners to buy out certain assets from the failing company so they can start again. On behalf of the owners the administrators will prepare an initial report that will outline the circumstances of the administration and give a first idea as to the prospects of unsecured creditors (that is you and all other suppliers of goods and services) getting any money after collecting all known assets and paying the administrators fees and secured creditors such as any bank finance. That will be the first insight as to what, if any, of your debt is going to be paid. They will also call a meeting of the creditors which you will be entitled to attend, although it doesn't usually achieve much, when a liquidator will be appointed if it is evident that the company is insolvent. The liquidator will probably be the administrators although the creditors can, and occasionally do, vote for another liquidator. Assume you have lost the lot, because that is the most likely scenario, and you may be surprised and get some of it back at some point in the distant future. If you are VAT registered and have account for VAT on an accruals basis you will be entitled to recover that VAT. Bad luck. Not only have you probably lost a big chunk of money but you have to find a new customer to replace the work you have lost. Not a great place to be sadly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rider Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 The administrators should write to you as a creditor, if they don't then you need to contact them to be added to the creditors list. If the company is a limited company then you just have to take what the administrator hands out as so many pence in the pound. The last time I received money from an administrator the final distribution was 0p in the £ as there were insufficient funds to pay out the preferred creditors (staff wages and secured loans) so you would do best to consider the money lost and anything that does come your way is a bonus. If its not a limited company then there are options for the administrators to pursue the traders personally and this will include property and possessions. The last time I had a settlement from an administrator of a sole trader the final distribution after their house sale and 18 months later was 16p in the £. Just be prepared to take a big hit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidewaysdan Posted July 15, 2018 Author Share Posted July 15, 2018 Thanks for your input guys. Yes it happened very suddenly was only told Friday morning so out of the blue. The company are on a framework also as doing all the big contracts on site. So my invoices are a mix of price work and day work . I was meant to start another job on-site this Monday but who will pay the wages now if they’ve gone into administration.. yeh I’m not holding my breath on getting my money back as some of the lads I work with are also owed over 20k also and they are in the same position Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilkinson Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 Wrongful Trading / Fraudulent Trading. Have they gone into voluntary liquidation or has it been forced by a creditor? In voluntarily liquidation the company can appoint their own liquidators. If not then it's the court through the insolvency service that does it. If they have been Wrongful Trading / Fraudulent Trading the liquidators can go after the directors assets. A good indication of Wrongful Trading / Fraudulent Trading would have been the recent acceptance of contract work. They would have known for weeks, if not months, that things were going wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidewaysdan Posted July 15, 2018 Author Share Posted July 15, 2018 No they’re in administration not liquidation.. the company are on a framework and also do all the big contracts on the site as a preferred installer. So this is why I have upcoming jobs to do/complete. But how does it work with ongoing payments. Say the administrator can bring it back as the part of the business I work for still makes profit it’s the m&e side that’s making big losses Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagman Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 Been there about three or four times : each time bar one had a similar outcome , filled in all the relevant paperwork , waited a couple of years and got paid enough for a value bag of crisps - the majority of the money was plundered by the administrators/liquidators. They had things like asset sales where they sold maybe £200k of stuff , got £10k and admin cost of £15 k ??!!? The one time it did not turn out like that , I had the foresight to remove some equipment before it all went Pete tong - very high value equipment that had a knock on cost to the company - I got in quick before the locks went on the doors and “held “ the equipment pending settlement of invoices - lots of threats but ultimately they paid me very quickly and got the stuff back !! Don’t know the legal details but possession rules - I had it and they wanted it . I know dozens of people that this has happened to , it’s common in my game and seldom works out if owed money - the game is rigged ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 the majority of the money was plundered by the administrators/liquidators. This. It makes my blood boil. There should be a public service for this, not leach accountants sucking what is already a bad situation dry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blythmrk Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 This. It makes my blood boil. There should be a public service for this, not leach accountants sucking what is already a bad situation dry. Ditto it’s all a big con we have had companies do this to us the system stinks, one of my best customers was a large receiver the money the bosses earned was unreal although they eventually were closed down due to illegal practices. I once saw what they had valued a 6 month old vectra (it’s a long time ago) for disposal I called them up stating I would pay that for it to the reply of we sell all our vehicle disposals to one company I bet they do another nice little earner! If the goods/services supplied are removable I would be removing the goods supplied (yours until paid for) but this is highly risky depending on your trade! I have taken goods back Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagman Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 It is indeed a big con , it's not a surprise to the Owners/directors that a company has gone bust , they have known for ages and done their plundering before hand , taking out bank loans , selling company offices and lease back deals , moving assets into untouchable places . If it was foreign owned (many are) the money disappears even faster !!! The owners/directors/senior management all move on to the next project with the loot What's left goes to the liquidators/administrators usually as a percentage deal of the total assets of the company (a percentage of what is at best confusing and calculated by the Liquidators) In short it is always the workers who lose out , either those who work for the company or supply the company , people who actually work always always lose ....those are the rules Sometimes companies linger on , often reducing wages as the "solution" , normally this means there is a pension fund that someone needs to work out how to plunder .....maybe another company can buy it out in total and "restructure" ie plunder some more . It's modern business , a conmans chess game ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rider Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 It's modern business , a conmans chess game ... Its a chess game with a lot of indicators along the way though. I've ditched loads of slow paying customers, some of them big customers, because of their payment habits, credit score, free cash and leverage indicates they are going to fail. Maybe not this year, maybe not next but fail they will. The stats tell you what you are facing, 40% of business close within 5 years of opening, 60% close within 10 years, over 90% close within 50 years. Very few make it to 100 years, like Woolworths did then it died. Having started up a business in 2003 over 100 of the 170 companies that we have supplied in 15 years of operating are no longer trading, only three closures have taken us for money and it was only small change in the scheme of things. Anyone invoicing clients should be signed up with a credit agency where they can view company information, financial standing, ratings, director history and get real time alerts. We use creditsafe ourselves and have done for many years to monitor customers, potential customers and competitors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidewaysdan Posted July 17, 2018 Author Share Posted July 17, 2018 So it went down hill pretty quick. Administrators came to the office today to see what was left ie stock/materials turned out the company had a court case going on and they were fined £480k for breach of H&S on a job a couple of years ago.. Luckily one of the jobs I started last week the contractor has taken me and another lad on to complete the project so should keep us busy for a couple of months .. fingers crossed.. just think I’ve gotta except I have just lost £10k witch is a big hit for me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evinX Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Sorry to hear what your going through mate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidewaysdan Posted July 17, 2018 Author Share Posted July 17, 2018 Sorry to hear what your going through mate Thanks mate.. fingers crossed I won’t need to sell the supra and things will get back to normal soon. It always happens when you think things are going good and your not chasing your tale .. oh well sh_t happens I suppose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fulcrum2000 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Yes I agree with some of the above mate, unfortunately UK law is set so whatever they perceive is 'owed' to the government gets the biggest slice of the pie, after that you will be contacted in due course but it wouldnt hurt to contact the administrators to make sure you're registered as a company going into liquidation for whatever reason often 'loses financial data' along the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooter Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 So it went down hill pretty quick. Administrators came to the office today to see what was left ie stock/materials turned out the company had a court case going on and they were fined £480k for breach of H&S on a job a couple of years ago.. Luckily one of the jobs I started last week the contractor has taken me and another lad on to complete the project so should keep us busy for a couple of months .. fingers crossed.. just think I’ve gotta except I have just lost £10k witch is a big hit for me ......delicate situation but is the current project being paid for up front? I'd hate to see you get hit twice but appreciate you don't want to go out looking for other work either. How replaceable are you and this other guy can you dig your heels in and get paid weekly or something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidewaysdan Posted July 17, 2018 Author Share Posted July 17, 2018 Hi scooter . The contractor I’m working for now is payed via the university and I’m a approved installer so it would be hard for them to get someone else easily. I have stated on my quote that it will be 7 days from invoice.. and I know the IT director very well and he said if I have any problems he would make sure they never work onsite again and they’ve been doing work there for a while now.. so it would be beneficial for them to keep me sweet . so fingers crossed it won’t happen again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooter Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Fair enough sounds about as good as you can do! best of luck with it all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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