Rear sub frame swap - off for galvanzing, may turn into a project thread

[rider]

Have you removed the odd plastic vertical (ventilation?) panel on the inside of the rear quarter

 

Its the cabin ventilation flap and behind it everything looks like the day it rolled off the paint line. Its a similar story through the front of wheel housing cooler vents. The metal feels perfectly smooth the internal side of the housing so all rust originates within the wheel housing. This is probably why the external bodywork of Supras always, well almost always, hides the age of the cars extremely well. Any rusting is happening very much out of sight behind the wheel arch and behind the sub frame. Though, I'd rather cut out and patch a wheel housing panel than have to do that to an exterior wing. With one you don't need a super tidy job and a re-spray, with the other you would need to subscribe to both.

 

For those who have recent import cars I'd recommend smearing a substantial layer of grease or preferably something like a Dinitol 3125 spray (thick enough to stick and fluid enough to wipe off) on their outer and inner wheel housing panels from their lower lips up to the factory protective layer. That would go a long way to preventing the panel rust and then under protection layer rusting from ever occurring. If I had know I'd be owning my car since 1998 then I probably would have done that in 1998.

[rider]

Old classic cars are like beautiful mature women, they look great until you start poking about.

 

Are you good at cut and patch welding Chris, care poking my classic car?

[Chris Wilson]

I don't touch paint work or body work stuff, not geared up for it and dislike it it with a passion. I love carbon tubs though, this sort of *$@~ isn't an issue In my younger days I restored two road cars to show standards bar the paint work which I farmed out. Both cars ended up too pristine to enjoy and the work / pleasure ratio was very one sided, never again!

 

My current road cars are health hazards internally, and if they suffered minor parking damage I am almost certain not to even notice No stress.... I do appreciate mint classics, just gone past the hassles of owning one myself these days. Speed cameras, dash cams, average speed cams, inconsiderate or jealous people in car parks, speed bumps, emissions law, things were so much better in "the old days"! The wife parks her car yards from any other cars in Tescos when going into town, has it valeted every week, and frets at the least mark on the inside of the windows. The dogs and I keep hoping she'll write the damned thing off and go back to a sensible shed estate.

[rider]

If anyone knows of any good mobile welders in or around Shropshire do let me know. It suits a mobile outfit as the access is optimal with the sub frame off the car and without the sub frame on the car, its not going anywhere.

 

PS - I know a fair few in the trade so I have called in some favours this afternoon and sorted with a friend of a friend coming round on Saturday to assess with a view to tackling it next week. If all works out that fits in nicely with my plans to finish the sanding over the next 7 days and have the following weekend for the prep, etch and POR paint stage. That way I can keep to my timescale of reassemble by the end of the month awaiting then only the delivery of the Blitz exhaust some time in November.

Edited October 12, 2017 by rider (see edit history)

[rider]

Here is a picture of the rust iceberg unearthed today on the passenger side that occurs when the factory protection applied onto the wheel housing panels fails and rusting is then far worse than on the unprotected area.

 

[blythmrk]

Here is a picture of the rust iceberg unearthed today on the passenger side that occurs when the factory protection applied onto the wheel housing panels fails and rusting is then far worse than on the unprotected area.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]222945[/ATTACH]

 

I think a reaction has happened with the under seal as on my UK car as soon as I got into the thick rubbery oem finish there was no corrosion after a few millimetres!

The only other thing I can think yours lived outside for many years and not garaged am I correct all I can go on is when I moved house a few years ago my RS4 lived outside for a year I couldn't believe how it went down hill eg many parts started showing age.

Keep it up its very time consuming work although at least you know its well done as I cannot see a garage going to the lengths me and you have;)

[Chris Wilson]

Trapped damp under imperfect underseal is a killer. That's why I an very anti under sealing older cars unless they are proven to be free of rust to start with, and have been in a heated forced air spray booth on full bake for a couple of days and nights, which is costly due to energy used and inability to use the booth for its normal function. God knows how many BTU they use, I know my pal used to wince at the electric bills for his spray booths.

[rider]

Got to love Mr T. Charges the earth for Supra bits these day and so far I've had dented tank guard, crushed fuel lines, bent brake pipes and now... Mating up the new suspension arms with the correct bolts and washers etc to make installation straightforward after I got bored (or possibly depressed) sanding today and even though you spend very close to 2 grand the parts aren't exactly wrapped in cotton wool in transit. When the same arms for lesser cars cost a few hundred Toyota could afford to put some of the extra £1500 towards bubble wrap, feather bedding or something. Both of the rods have missing paint (bare metal) and corroded welds. Guess these need to go on the to prep and paint list like the tank guard enjoyed after its hazardous journey here. So the bolt mating didn't get to far.

 

No garage fitting these as new parts would give a toss and they would be rusting away nicely from day 1.

 

[rider]

The only other thing I can think yours lived outside for many years and not garaged am I correct

 

The car was outside until I built my garage three years ago. Now it sits in dehumidified garage glory, except when its up on the lift.

 

That's why I an very anti under sealing older cars

 

I used to love underseal. Now I hate it because I have seen what happens under the underseal too many times. Its a warning to others though, that slight shadow under a ever so tiny section of the hard protective coating applied in the wheel housing area could be hiding about 12 square inches of badness.

Edited October 13, 2017 by rider (see edit history)

[Chris Wilson]

I wonder how long some of these "new" parts have been in storage at Toyota? I fitted a new water pump a bit ago and it had surface corrosion on the alloy, obviously been stored somewhere less than bone dry... I suspect some of the new bits have sat around now for nigh on 20 years. Probably been around the garden (to dealers and sent back) a few times as well. At least there's still a lot of stuff still available.

[rider]

Got the arms sanded, rust treated and bush masked ready for prime and paint and my little helper turned up. The arms are a bit heavy for the painting line I've been using on parts so he wasn't really helping out this time with the full on claws into the masking tape. He's 16 years old now but was a hell of a ratter in his day, fearless, and we have shared many visits to the vet to get bits sewn back up; rats have sharp teeth too. He and his three furry friends keep all rodents out of the barns, there was no signs of any mice visits in a car we stored for someone for 18 years.

 

I'll need to divert him with lots of food when I come to spray the POR 15 chemical two stage prep then hopefully he will take himself off somewhere else to sleep it off.

 

[rider]

Got all the new arms mated up with the right bolts, cams, washers and nuts ready to fit. I'm going to give it all a wipe over with a greasy rag before fitting and then seal off the bolt heads and protruding threads with a corrosion inhibiting grease so there should be no more rusty nuts and bolts for whoever revisits the arms. That will be straight after fitting when the alignment will be professionally set.

 

 

Welder showed on time today which is unusual when you operate in what is called Shropshire time. He is going to cut fresh metal into the outer wheel housing panel on the drivers side sometime in the week so its looking like everything is still on plan to prep, treat and paint next weekend.

[rider]

I have taken a couple of arms off the 110k mile sub frame that I pulled off my car and compared those to the ones that came with the low miler frame that I'm using to swap onto my car. My original hope when I purchased the loaded frame was to simply swap over stock and barrel the frame, hubs and arms that I purchased last year but once I removed the hub it was evident that the arms were in such a poor state that simply wasn't an option.

 

Looking at the arms I have taken off my 110k miler the ball joints are still tight and the bushes take a good amount of force to rock the bolt. Comparing that to my new arms, the ball joint are not just tight they are as they should be and they take a good bit of effort to move and the bushes are also a good bit stiffer than my old arms. Looking at the arms off the swap frame they are plain shot. The ball joints flop around in their sockets and the bushes are like mush.

 

Not sure what this tells me other then the ones on my car were in good shape after 110k miles and that those on the replacement frame either weren't actually off a low miler or had experienced a lot of unusual hard wear. Maybe they came off a everyday track car that had done 200k miles?

 

Good news for owners is that after 110k miles the arms can remain in functionally excellent shape beyond the rust that has taken hold on all but the top control arm, particularly so on the inside face of the hub connection of the solid track arm.

[Scooter]

Just on the arms ball joints, i do remember reading somewhere in the repair manuals that there is a nm torque range which indicates whether they are in spec, i spose you pop two nuts on the thread and then measure the a torque wrench the torque, drag, stiction in the joint to test how loose/worn it is.

[rider]

Here is a picture of the rust iceberg unearthed today on the passenger side that occurs when the factory protection applied onto the wheel housing panels fails and rusting is then far worse than on the unprotected area.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]222945[/ATTACH]

 

Shit a rusty brick, I did say the metal condition behind the hard factory protective layer was worse than the unprotected part and it has proved to be much worse. Sanding the 12 square inches of rust unearthed behind the removed protective coating has shown its got much further to go and its turned into a rapidly developing hole. The picture below shows some unwelcome happenings underneath the protective layer,. The coating has lifted way beyond where the original coating edge has lifted as can be seen from the shadow on the picture. There is a lot more to be chipped away and that hole is fully 11/2 to 3 inches into the protective coating (4 - 8cm for those who don't know inches).

 

You really would never know it was there unless you were on a mission to hunt for rust and get stuck in doing some serious digging, or aggressive stabbing with a flat head screwdriver and sander. Here is a picture of the hole and here is what the same area used to look like before I attacked it. There is no clue whats going on hidden behind the factory protective coating, not even rust stain runs.

 

 

Gives the welder mate of a mate something to do I guess.

Edited October 17, 2017 by rider (see edit history)

[Scooter]

Noted for my revisit in the spring! Have you had a good look on the other side? I'm just trying to work out whether you've been unlucky with a rogue impact years ago which cut through or caused the lift in the protective coating and it's grown/worsened from that point, or if this can just happen some how.

[rider]

Noted for my revisit in the spring! Have you had a good look on the other side? I'm just trying to work out whether you've been unlucky with a rogue impact years ago which cut through or caused the lift in the protective coating and it's grown/worsened from that point, or if this can just happen some how.

 

Both outer wheel housing panels are now holed in areas that were a week ago under the protective coating so its not side dependent. Areas to look at are below and alongside the cooler vent and then where the factory pretection ends which is about 4 inches short of the wheel arch all the way around from the front vent to the rear hockey stick. Check with a strong down light for any sign of a raised shadow on the edge, even if its the slightest shadow the coating then needs pulling off or if you'd prefer, well left alone applying the out of sight principle.

[blythmrk]

Mine seemed fine I took back the protective coating (no peeling away which you describe) a few millimetres and absolutely nothing just clean metal the only thing in the unprotected areas behind the arch lips was slight blistering caused by stone chips but nothing major. I presume where the coating was peeling back there was rust visible straight away as soon as you had a scrape at it?

Is there light at the end of the tunnel yet!

[rider]

I presume where the coating was peeling back there was rust visible straight away as soon as you had a scrape at it?

Is there light at the end of the tunnel yet!

 

That's correct, there was rusting as the lifted protection was flaked back. If there is no lift on the edge then it should be safe to assume all is well underneath. As for lights, I think when the new metal is patched in then there will be a light in the distance. Once I can get on with the prep and paint it wont take long to bolt everything back in place.

[rider]

Welder has turned up as promised this morning which for anyone who knows of Shropshire Time is a big result. I can't bear to watch so left him to it and I'm on to take a cuppa over every hour. Fingers crossed he is good or I'll probably cry. Looking promising for the prep, treat and paint this weekend if he finishes it today. Decided to cut fresh metal into 5 places in the rear wheel housings, 2 holes and 3 areas where the metal is badly pitted and doesn't look like it has got another 20 years in it.

[Scooter]

Better to get it all done in one hit

 

Just for the record these holes obviously give you a view into the rear quarter cavity and there is no signs of rust in the inside of the outer wings if you see what I mean? Ie your issue has definitely been an outside to in one?

[rider]

Just for the record these holes obviously give you a view into the rear quarter cavity and there is no signs of rust in the inside of the outer wings if you see what I mean? Ie your issue has definitely been an outside to in one?

 

That is correct, the other side of the wheel housing panels is painted and smooth, all the rust is contained within the exterior facing wheel housing panels and there weren't any holes before I went stabbing with a screwdriver. A simple, quick and easy fix would have been to slap on a cabin side backing of fibreglass via the air intake scoop access and a little bit of filler topped with under seal. If I hadn't have been able to locate a welder I would have had no choice but to do that as a temporary fix.

 

Welder is one hole down and the patch looks very good so I'm feeling much more confident. Only being charged mates rates at £20/hr plus £20 for materials which is a bonus; his normal rate is £50/hr. Making him lunch now to keep him happy.

[rider]

Completed the two stage POR 15 chemical prep work over this weekend.

 

First up with the POR 15 cleaner in a 1:1 with hot water as per directions. Sprayed, using a simple 500cc £2 hand spray, over the treatment areas with follow up wetting as per directions to keep the surfaces wet over the next half an hour. Then rinsed off with copious amounts of spring water from a hose.

 

Second day, applied the POR 15 metal prep using a hand spray over the full treatment area followed by wetting for another 45 minutes (directions are for a minimum of 30 minutes) before washing off with a hose. To be critical it didn't look like the POR 15 metal prep did much if anything. What was brown stayed brown when it is supposed to turn black. The directions do say it is a product best applied in ambient exceeding 70F which it certainly wasn't today so maybe it was just to cold to get the etching and conversion chemical reaction underway to any visible degree. So, this afternoon I went over the treatment area again, this time using a paint brush applying aquasteel which is a product I've used a fair amount on my other cars and it does do rust conversion well.

 

So treatment done, it'll be paint on the POR 15 silver next and then top coat in black acrylic and I've ordered in some rubberised spray to finish off the wheel housing areas where I peeled back the factory protected coating. Then it'll be onto the diff, drive shafts and hubs to clean up and paint. Then, finally, it'll be reassembly time.

[rider]

Started to focus into some of the detailing for reassembly, the drive shafts are sanded down and prepped ready for prime and paint and got stuck into the drive shaft bolt and retainer rings this morning as the bolt heads and the rings were encrusted in a layer of rust. This part really does take a lot of time but luckily, its a part I enjoy. I spent over 2 hours just on the drive shaft fixings this morning to get them ready for the prep stage. The best way to remove surface rust I have available is immersion bathing in muriatic acid. After 20 minutes in the parts were fished out, water rinsed and wire brushed down then returned for another pickle. This was repeated again and all the surface rust was removed revealing the actual origins of the all encasing rust to be small on the retainers and the bolt heads.

 

The picture shows the bolt retainers after the three time pickle treatment and ready for the next stage which was immersion in the POR 15 metal prep along with the bolt heads. I'll leave them there till probably tomorrow and then get them ready for the final prime and paint.

 

 

I'm planning on giving the car a day or two to dry out before painting the silver POR 15. There is still a lot left to do on this restoration but I know after I get the underside painted it'll be quick from there with spray can top coats leaving just the diff, drive shafts and hubs to detail before the sockets come out again for the home straight onto frame bolting on of arms, hubs and diff.

Edited October 23, 2017 by rider (see edit history)

[Dnk]

I'd be zinc coating as much of this as possible, way better than painting them imo