Manchester attack

[Dnk]

Suicide bomber has detonated a device at Manchester Arena killing 22 and 59 injured !

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/22/manchester-arena-evacuated-reports-gunshots-explosion/

[JackyBoi]

Such awful news. These attacks seem to be getting more and more frequent unfortunately

[rock on]

Sad Mancunian

 

 

[Zeiretto]

Mostly kids too. Fuck this.

[el_bandido]

The huge irony of these attacks in the UK is that it continues to prove how much terrorism doesn't work in Britain. I was in London the day that nutter ran a load of people over and stabbed a police officer; the atmosphere was calm and most of the conversation was about how annoying the tube delays were. Last night's reaction was hotels offering free beds and taxi drivers as far as Liverpool giving people a lift home. The national reflex to this kind of tragedy is one of nonchalant defiance, not a descent into chaos. Manchester was my home for the best part of a decade and I was at a gig there this weekend; I'm fortunate enough to know that all of my friends are safe, but my heart goes out to anyone affected and I have absolutely no doubt that the city will pull together in response to this.

[Al Massey]

The huge irony of these attacks in the UK is that it continues to prove how much terrorism doesn't work in Britain. I was in London the day that nutter ran a load of people over and stabbed a police officer; the atmosphere was calm and most of the conversation was about how annoying the tube delays were. Last night's reaction was hotels offering free beds and taxi drivers as far as Liverpool giving people a lift home. The national reflex to this kind of tragedy is one of nonchalant defiance, not a descent into chaos. Manchester was my home for the best part of a decade and I was at a gig there this weekend; I'm fortunate enough to know that all of my friends are safe, but my heart goes out to anyone affected and I have absolutely no doubt that the city will pull together in response to this.

 

Spot on.

 

I'm amazed at how well the British people have been so caring, open and kind without hesitation or batting an eye lid.

 

Truly inspirational and shows solidarity.

[Hammer]

Well said el_bandido, these nut jobs just can't comprehend how other people do care for each other in a crisis, because they, themselves are so incapable as human beings.

[brassbones]

How does someone come to believe that there is a deity that rewards the murder of defenseless innocents? That goes against the teachings of its own scripture and that increases division and the hatred of followers of their own (supposed) creed. Are these people fundamentally stupid as well as murderous cowards? *** clearly I am making an assumption here on the overwhelming balance of probabilities ***

[j_jza80]

How does someone come to believe that there is a deity that rewards the murder of defenseless innocents? That goes against the teachings of its own scripture and that increases division and the hatred of followers of their own (supposed) creed. Are these people fundamentally stupid as well as murderous cowards? *** clearly I am making an assumption here on the overwhelming balance of probabilities ***

 

I believe this may answer your question...

[video=youtube;-suvkwNYSQo]

[skippyboyo1]

sick people, this is another level this.

[Big Supes]

How does someone come to believe that there is a deity that rewards the murder of defenseless innocents? That goes against the teachings of its own scripture and that increases division and the hatred of followers of their own (supposed) creed. Are these people fundamentally stupid as well as murderous cowards? *** clearly I am making an assumption here on the overwhelming balance of probabilities ***

 

I cannot confess to reading the Quran, but does it? From what I'm to believe there are indeed passages that incite violence against non-believers. It is commonly known as Jihad.

[AC93]

How does someone come to believe that there is a deity that rewards the murder of defenseless innocents? That goes against the teachings of its own scripture and that increases division and the hatred of followers of their own (supposed) creed. Are these people fundamentally stupid as well as murderous cowards? *** clearly I am making an assumption here on the overwhelming balance of probabilities ***

 

I cannot confess to reading the Quran, but does it? From what I'm to believe there are indeed passages that incite violence against non-believers. It is commonly known as Jihad.

 

 

I can see where you're coming from. Any decent Islamic scholar will tell you violent actions for religious reasons are wrong and our book talks about Jews and Christians as 'people of the book'. Jihad is actually political and legal non violent means to protect the religion. Not going around blowing people up :/

So yeah they are stupid knob jockeys/extremists that I wouldn't regard as faithful to the true fundamentals of Islam.

[Big Supes]

I can see where you're coming from. Any decent Islamic scholar will tell you violent actions for religious reasons are wrong and our book talks about Jews and Christians as 'people of the book'. Jihad is actually political and legal non violent means to protect the religion. Not going around blowing people up :/

So yeah they are stupid knob jockeys/extremists that I wouldn't regard as faithful to the true fundamentals of Islam.

 

I think any normal person would say this, but I feel one of the problems with Islam and the Quran is there are many contradicting views/perceptions on what is actually written, and the context it is written in.

 

There are multiple sources out there that highlight versus from the Quran that call Muslims to war with non-believers. It seems moderate Muslims are either not aware of these versus (also haven't read the Quran) or they will rationalise them in context with the times. More devout Muslims believe the Quran is the word of God and should be taken literally. They lack rational thought as they have 100% submitted to Islam; the definition of the word.

[Big Supes]

Personally, I think all religions should be fazed out in the UK. Do away with faith schools, halt further churches or mosques from being built. Mosques need routine Ofsted inspections and any extremism or Islamists should be deported (if asylum seeker) or face severe jail time in prisons where religion is banned outright and replaced with education. No religion should be taught to children until the age of 16. If you want to believe in father Christmas, fine. Do it behind closed doors.

 

It's 2017. It's time to move on and religion should be way down the list of priorities....especially when it involves people's safety.

 

Sorry if this came off as a rant.

[j_jza80]

I think any normal person would say this, but I feel one of the problems with Islam and the Quran is there are many contradicting views/perceptions on what is actually written, and the context it is written in.

 

I think people are starting to realise that the Abrahamic religions (Christianity, Islam, and Judaism) are a hindrance to decent, liberal societies, and are abandoning religion en masse. Churches are almost empty most of the time, and even in a small place like York you see a lot of Muslims drinking with everyone else on a weekend. That is what the likes of Isis and other Islamists despise, people abandoning religion, and thereby depriving them of any power.

[brassbones]

I believe this may answer your question...

 

Yes, I've seen this before and as with so many such characterisations it falls down on the premise that "god" is watching over each and every one of us ... on this lump of rock whizzing around an unremarkable star ... in the outer arm of an unremarkable galaxy ... one of billions of galaxies in this universe ... of which there may be many, or even an infinitude.

 

If there is an intelligent design or maker [choose your own words] I'm pretty certain it wont be an old codger with a beard sitting on a cloud the other side of some gates and dreaming up bone cancer in children to punish us. Even some of the phenomena in our known universe are beyond the capacity of man to physically comprehend and can only be described using complex applied mathematics. I'm fairly sure the an intelligent desgner / maker / force / [chooseword] will fall into this category too.

[j_jza80]

Yes, I've seen this before and as with so many such characterisations it falls down on the premise that "god" is watching over each and every one of us ... on this lump of rock whizzing around an unremarkable star ... in the outer arm of an unremarkable galaxy ... one of billions of galaxies in this universe ... of which there may be many, or even an infinitude.

 

If there is an intelligent design or maker [choose your own words] I'm pretty certain it wont be an old codger with a beard sitting on a cloud the other side of some gates and dreaming up bone cancer in children to punish us. Even some of the phenomena in our known universe are beyond the capacity of man to physically comprehend and can only be described using complex applied mathematics. I'm fairly sure the an intelligent desgner / maker / force / [chooseword] will fall into this category too.

 

You've just defined agnosticism, the only logical system of belief / non belief

[formatzero]

Yes, I've seen this before and as with so many such characterisations it falls down on the premise that "god" is watching over each and every one of us ... on this lump of rock whizzing around an unremarkable star ... in the outer arm of an unremarkable galaxy ... one of billions of galaxies in this universe ... of which there may be many, or even an infinitude.

 

If there is an intelligent design or maker [choose your own words] I'm pretty certain it wont be an old codger with a beard sitting on a cloud the other side of some gates and dreaming up bone cancer in children to punish us. Even some of the phenomena in our known universe are beyond the capacity of man to physically comprehend and can only be described using complex applied mathematics. I'm fairly sure the an intelligent desgner / maker / force / [chooseword] will fall into this category too.

 

If indeed some Supreme being is watching us all,it has a strange sense of humour.While most of the galaxies are moving away from us at ever increasing speeds Andromeda is heading straight for us !! It will take a while though.

[Frank Bullitt]

I believe this may answer your question...

 

Did you know he is under investigation as someone in Ireland was offended at his blasphemous comments

 

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/garda-launch-blasphemy-probe-into-stephen-fry-comments-on-the-meaning-of-life-35684262.html

[marbleapple]

My friends mum is still missing after last night. Very sad.

 

I wasn't going to post in this thread but I've taken a little umbrage to the 'bible bashing' we like to do on this forum every time some idiot goes and does something inexcusable. Forgive my venting.

 

Personally, I think all religions should be fazed out in the UK. ...religion is banned outright and replaced with education. No religion should be taught to children until the age of 16. .

 

Where do you think Western culture and the things we called morals originated from? Politicians didn't invent it that's for sure.

 

Religion isn't the problem here. It does more good than harm by a long way. Go into a church and you will understand hat often they are the centre of local

Community spirit. They certainly were at the gathering in Manchester centre today. The actions and responses of the wonderful people of Manchester derive from their social culture and knowing what is right and wrong. I'd suggest that this comes from their religious beliefs and moral upbringing (which undoubtably historically comes from our moral beliefs). Religion creates the rules we are governed by and our laws enshrine them.

 

If you want to believe in father Christmas, fine. Do it behind closed doors.

 

I personally think the above is rather flawed. Dangerous in fact. Do you think extremists, what ever the religion, get that way through attending their local church or community group? These idiots are a sub culture which is operating in the whole behind closed doors. Your suggestion that everyone worship behind closed doors surely just invites greater extremism?

 

Don't get me wrong. I'm not actually pro God etc; I'm just very much in support of the positive impact it has on the moral fabric of our society. I'm more in favour of the rules, guidance and community spirit it brings.

 

As for what religious texts say; I personally think of them as very out of date rule books. The ideas were passed down but like the application of law we should consider the purposive interpretation of the words rather than the literal interpretation. Sadly people often stick to the literal interpretation which causes confusion. For example, the story of Jesus walking in the desert for 40 days and 40 nights. People think this means 40 days and 40 nights... it is in fact a term in those times to mean 'a long time'.

 

Also, the Old Testament has some really 'old school' views. It's not just Islamic texts.

 

P.p.s no personal insult intended to Big Supes. We are all entitled to our opinions.

[Scooter]

If we were all wiped out apart from a small amazonian tribe, the type who still had spears and are scared of aircraft, then you can imagine in 'x' thousands years modern man might be back in a similar guise, discovering the same new lands, the same modern materials and the same scientific breakthroughs ie the underpinnings of the universe, but where would any of the religions be!? If no books survived or people to pass on the good word then in all likelyhood man would have by then created a different deity in this new world, perhaps it's almost a necessary or natural evolutionary step!? I don't know but for me once you find out the Sun is a star that will burn out, and that as someone said above you are far from the centre of anything then surely it all becomes a questionable even for the devout believers?

 

Saying this the big question on what then made the universe or how it came to be etc etc never goes away and it seem 'human' to think 'someone' created all this and if they did they must be all powerful etc, plus few like to think of death as the end, I think it is but am willing to be pleasantly surprised!

 

There are decent people and aresholes, far more decent than arseholes I beleive but they are present in both non religious and religious portions of society.

[j_jza80]

Where do you think Western culture and the things we called morals originated from? Politicians didn't invent it that's for sure.

 

Religion isn't the problem here. It does more good than harm by a long way. Go into a church and you will understand hat often they are the centre of local

Community spirit. They certainly were at the gathering in Manchester centre today. The actions and responses of the wonderful people of Manchester derive from their social culture and knowing what is right and wrong. I'd suggest that this comes from their religious beliefs and moral upbringing (which undoubtably historically comes from our moral beliefs). Religion creates the rules we are governed by and our laws enshrine them.

 

The roots of our society predate Christianity, so it is not solely responsible for our ethics and morals. We have outgrown these belief systems, and our human laws (in this country at least) are far superior to any religious teachin as the basis of morality. For example, have a read of what the Abrahamic religions still say about homosexuality. If I tried to publish a book today which was half as homophobic as these religious scriptures, I'd likely be arrested.

 

Religion IS the problem. If you tell a devout atheist to detonate a bomb in public, do you think they would do it? Now take a thoroughly indoctrinated religious person, and tell them to do the same. Tell them that it will be in the name of their god, and that they will be rewarded in the afterlife with everything they have ever wanted. Who do you think would be most likely to listen?

 

Religion is, and always has been a way of controlling people, and in some cases it is still extremely effective. And this is only the tip of the religious iceberg, for example, it seems that in some areas the NHS is becoming overwhelmed by the results inbreeding in some religious communities: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/london-borough-child-deaths-redbridge-parents-related-cousins-pakistani-families-council-report-a7741146.html

This practice isn't exclusive to Islam, various other religions and cultures indulge in this awful practice around the world.

[SupraLEDrears]

This happened 2 miles from where I worked last night. Crazy and apparently it was a student at Salford university and they had to evacuate the halls earlier due to suspicous packages found. I just felt so sad and angry last night, words can't describe it.

[el_bandido]

There are decent people and aresholes, far more decent than arseholes I beleive but they are present in both non religious and religious portions of society.

 

The more important factor there is that the arseholes make headlines, good people very rarely do.

[marbleapple]

The roots of our society predate Christianity, so it is not solely responsible for our ethics and morals.

 

Where did I say Christianity? I agree with you as far as Christianity is concerned but I think you'll note I refer to religion (which itself predates Christianity).

 

I agree that it's not solely responsible (nothing ever is) but it's a main driver. Our laws are interpreted in line with it too.

 

 

We have outgrown these belief systems, and our human laws (in this country at least) are far superior to any religious teachin as the basis of morality.

 

You do realise that our laws are based primarily on case law. Case law is determined on a judge or jury's interpretation of the purposive approach to the legislation based on our ethical and moral social fabric. In other words, our laws are a consequence of our religious beliefs. In the U.K. we openly acknowledge this is a Christian country and our laws are interpreted in line with Christian values. In Other countries their laws are often guided or interpreted in line with other religions.

 

In other counties the law isn't as good in England.

 

Religion IS the problem. If you tell a devout atheist to detonate a bomb in public, do you think they would do it?

 

You can't have a devout atheist who decides to prove a point by violence? Why does atheist mean they aren't violent? (Tell Adolf Hitler that). Nihilists too perhaps?

 

So you are either religious and go around blowing people up or your an atheist? How does that work?

 

Speak to my grandmother. She is very religious. She runs coffee mornings and is a pastoral visitor looking after the older people in her community in the name of her beliefs. That's what following a religion is to her and me. She isn't strapping a bomb to her chest and wouldn't do if asked either. The vast majority of religious people wouldn't either.

 

Your atheist views seem more divisive in my opinion than some religious texts!

 

Religion is, and always has been a way of controlling people, and in some cases it is still extremely effective.

 

This I agree with. This said, since our society is an output of religious rules 'thou shalt not kill etc' I don't think we have gone too far wrong. The vast majority of religious people (the majority of the world rather than the minority I believe) aren't suicidal killers. It's the nut jobs that have gone too far who cause the problems. Same could be said about extreme right and left wing political parties, people wanting to protect fluffy rabbits or wanting to wipe out the world.

 

 

And this is only the tip of the religious iceberg, for example, it seems that in some areas the NHS is becoming overwhelmed by the results inbreeding in some religious communities:

This practice isn't exclusive to Islam, various other religions and cultures indulge in this awful practice around the world.

 

You blame religion for this? Surely you can see this isn't purely or solely as a consequence of religion and there are wider issues?