Martin McGuinness

[Al Massey]

Your ignorance of history is astonishing

 

The goal of the unionist and overwhelmingly Protestant majority was to remain part of the United Kingdom. The goal of the nationalist and republican, almost exclusively Catholic, minority was to become part of the Republic of Ireland.

This was a territorial conflict, not a religious one.

 

British oppression -- Look up Plantations of Ireland

Plantations in 16th- and 17th-century Ireland involved the confiscation of land by the English crown and the colonisation of this land with settlers from the island of Great Britain.

 

Independence -- Look up Michael Collins

 

In particular Anglo-Irish Treaty,(1921) , Tyson was referring to this when he said Britain should have given the country it's independence

 

Ross Kemp did a fantastic Documentary on Northern Ireland present day in his Extreme world series

 

So two groups of people, heavily religious weren't bothered about religion, or the other parties religion but land and belonging to one nation or the other.

 

Yeah because religion has nothing to do with most of the mess for decades and decades.

 

Both sides hated each other's beliefs or identity.

Both used religion as a tool and weapon.

 

Starting to sound familiar with current times.

 

Plantations in the 16th century did not create the IRA or absolve them of any terrorist atrocity they committed.

 

Especially since British troops didn't go in till 69, because of the unrest and barricades caused by the two prominent groups in NI.

[j_jza80]

Your ignorance of history is astonishing

 

The goal of the unionist and overwhelmingly Protestant majority was to remain part of the United Kingdom. The goal of the nationalist and republican, almost exclusively Catholic, minority was to become part of the Republic of Ireland.

This was a territorial conflict, not a religious one.

 

British oppression -- Look up Plantations of Ireland

Plantations in 16th- and 17th-century Ireland involved the confiscation of land by the English crown and the colonisation of this land with settlers from the island of Great Britain.

 

Independence -- Look up Michael Collins

 

In particular Anglo-Irish Treaty,(1921) , Tyson was referring to this when he said Britain should have given the country it's independence

 

Ross Kemp did a fantastic Documentary on Northern Ireland present day in his Extreme world series

 

To put things into perspective though, it's not exactly like Ireland was some peaceful and prosperous land of plenty before the English. It was an incredibly violent, divided country for a long time, including occupations by various European nations before the English set foot on Irish soil.

[Tyson]

British oppression?

Independence?

 

So nothing to do with their own religious divide, or the fact that Northern Ireland wanted to be part of the UK.

 

There was a lot going on.

 

And they were not in any way shape or form freedom fighters.

They were terrorists.

 

And I'll tell you where my opinion from them comes from.

 

And that's as a child, living on an army camp in Germany, watching my dad, and everyone else's dad's check their cars first thing in the morning, and actually being in the immediate vicinity and watching my friends dad get blown up whilst starting his car.

 

Yeah freedom fighters

 

The religious divide was caused by the English when Henry Viii invaded Ireland in the 1530's.

[marbleapple]

The religious divide was caused by the English when Henry Viii invaded Ireland in the 1530's.

 

Can't we go even further back? What about when the Romans invaded?

[Tyson]

Can't we go even further back? What about when the Romans invaded?

 

You can if you like I was just highlighting a defining moment in Irish history that shaped the religious scene for the 400+ years and is still present today.

[marbleapple]

You can if you like I was just highlighting a defining moment in Irish history that shaped the religious scene for the 400+ years and is still present today.

 

You don't think that the Romans invading the country and brining the now Catholic religion to Ireland defined the landscape?

 

Next I reckon we should start a thread re the Middle East.

[Tyson]

You don't think that the Romans invading the country and brining the now Catholic religion to Ireland defined the landscape?

 

Next I reckon we should start a thread re the Middle East.

 

I bet if you spun a globe and stopped it with your finger you could start a thread on religious divide

[Frank Bullitt]

It's been a while and my history is a little rusty to say the least.

 

Four million Irish killed or displaced since 1850

 

To be fair it's a lot more than that so your statement isn't completely accurate. As you state 1850 I assume you are talking about Irish diaspora where mass migration from Ireland took place with approximately 5 million emigrating to the US and the poorer immigrants going to the UK.

 

After 1840 emigration from Ireland was a massive, relentless and an efficiently managed national enterprise. 40% of Irish-born people were living abroad and by the 21st century an estimated 80 million people worldwide claimed some Irish descent, which includes more than 36 million Americans who claim Irish as their primary ethnicity. Quantifiable records were kept from around 18th century so I would be pretty happy to take these figures as accurate.

 

The religious divide was caused by the English when Henry Viii invaded Ireland in the 1530's.

 

Wasn't the Kingdom of Ireland classed as a client state that had a personal union with the Kingdom of England until the Parliament of Ireland passed an act proclaiming Henry VIII as King of Ireland?

 

Didn't the Parliament of Ireland pass another act in which it abolished itself and the Kingdom. Said act was also passed by the Parliament of Great Britain which established the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland by uniting the Crowns of Ireland and of Great Britain.

 

Can't we go even further back? What about when the Romans invaded?

 

Yep, how about the Norman Conquests where the Norman, Breton, and French soldiers led by Duke of Normandy aka William the Conqueror invaded the England, Wales & Ireland?

[j_jza80]

It's funny how Britain, and especially England, is vilified almost uniquely for colonialism, when it was actually very late to that particular party. England itself had been victim to various colonial forces for millennia before the British empire.

 

And when discussing religious divide and the impact it has on modern western societies,

 

A) the Italians (Romans), and the whole of the middle East are much worse than anything Britain has done (Christianity or Catholicism weren't British inventionsinventions, and that's discounting the equally divisive and barbaric cults of Judaism and Islam

 

B) Catholicism is responsible for truly despicable, widespread views in Ireland on things like homosexuality, divorce and abortion. Those are completely self imposed religious divides, nothing to do with the English. Half my family is irish, and I've had to put up with no end of this backwards Catholic culture since I can remember.

[Annabella]

McGuiness was a murderer, torturer of innocents, that never got jailed and has been eulogised today on tv at times. Yes he became a 'politician' and the murdering has as good as stopped. Doesn't take away the fact he was a hideous man.

[marbleapple]

Half my family is irish, and I've had to put up with no end of this backwards

 

Says the Yorkshireman!!

 

(p.s. I am one too)

[Jellybean]

To put things into perspective though, it's not exactly like Ireland was some peaceful and prosperous land of plenty before the English. It was an incredibly violent, divided country for a long time, including occupations by various European nations before the English set foot on Irish soil.

 

You are saying England intervention by taking our lands was merely to bring civility and unification to our little isle, to save us from ourselfs , I can see where you are coming from , considering England at the time was peaceful and a prosperous land , not like they had civil war .....wait a minute

[j_jza80]

Says the Yorkshireman!!

 

(p.s. I am one too)

 

Half Irish Yorkshireman

[j_jza80]

You are saying England intervention by taking our lands was merely to bring civility and unification to our little isle, to save us from ourselfs , I can see where you are coming from , considering England at the time was peaceful and a prosperous land , not like they had civil war .....wait a minute

 

"Our lands"

 

Whose lands? Yours? If someone has taken your land you should phone the police.

[marbleapple]

You are saying England intervention by taking our lands was merely to bring civility and unification to our little isle, to save us from ourselfs

 

Jellybean; forgive me but how did you read his post as in any way implying the above?

[pedrosixfour]

You don't think that the Romans invading the country and brining the now Catholic religion to Ireland defined the landscape?

 

The Romans never came to Ireland.

 

Catholicism was brought to Ireland by what was long claimed to be a Welsh man, but he may have been Scottish.

 

We had a bit of a party there for him on Friday.

[Chriss]

The Romans never came to Ireland.

 

Catholicism was brought to Ireland by what was long claimed to be a Welsh man, but he may have been Scottish.

 

We had a bit of a party there for him on Friday.

 

I was about to say the same but this is getting a little heated, we did have trouble with the Vikings however as most European countries did. Good thing all this is behind us, but you know with Brexit happening maybe Scotland and Northern Ireland will break away from the UK and join with Ireland which would spark troubles up North again.

[jim]

Catholicism is responsible for truly despicable, widespread views in Ireland on things like homosexuality, divorce and abortion. Those are completely self imposed religious divides, nothing to do with the English. Half my family is irish, and I've had to put up with no end of this backwards Catholic culture since I can remember.

 

This gave me a bit of a chuckle no doubt the Catholic Church has much to be ashamed of for some heinous things that were carried out by them in Ireland, however it's the Protestant (and by extension Unionist) voices within NI (and more importantly in our Assembly) that have truly backwards and frankly embarrassing views on homosexuality.

Sinn Fein's remarkable success in the recent elections here at the expense of the Unionist parties was down to a number of things (including the negative impact of brexit on NI specifically), but largely because SF have progressive views on things like equality for the LGBT community

[marbleapple]

The Romans never came to Ireland.

 

 

I'm no historian but a 10 second search of google seemed to contradict that statement.

 

I agree that there are arguments as to whether they invaded Ireland but it's pretty clear Ireland knew about the Romans and visa versa and traded.

 

The owners of Drumanagh would suggest they had a fort in Ireland.

 

I mentioned the Romans as I was trying to make the point that people arguing about Ireland in the 1960's onwards (or even as far back as the 1500's) are arguing over the latest position, not the historic one. Go back far enough in any country and you will always found a culture or group who have been wronged by another. See Franks earlier post.

 

Apologies we are going off topic....

[jim]

Romans are a bit of a red herring anyway, I think the point is that in Irish Republicans' view the British still occupy part of Ireland whereas Italy or Rome don't

[pedrosixfour]

Romans are a bit of a red herring anyway, I think the point is that in Irish Republicans' view the British still occupy part of Ireland whereas Italy or Rome don't

 

Yeah, it's just the Vatican we need to oust at this stage. Everything and everyone else would be pretty welcome.

 

Except for the Dutch.

[jim]

Too right, bloody Dutch with their crepes and liberal views on marijuana...

[Jellybean]

I wonder did they get their bicycles back ....too soon?

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

I wonder did they get their bicycles back ....too soon?

[j_jza80]

This gave me a bit of a chuckle no doubt the Catholic Church has much to be ashamed of for some heinous things that were carried out by them in Ireland, however it's the Protestant (and by extension Unionist) voices within NI (and more importantly in our Assembly) that have truly backwards and frankly embarrassing views on homosexuality.

Sinn Fein's remarkable success in the recent elections here at the expense of the Unionist parties was down to a number of things (including the negative impact of brexit on NI specifically), but largely because SF have progressive views on things like equality for the LGBT community

 

I was specifically talking about Ireland, not northern Ireland but Yes, the Catholics political views are slightly less worse than the protestants.

 

But SF are not progressive. They are like the FN in France and the SNP, who hide their divisive nationalist agendas behind so called progressive policies.

[Swampy442]

I saw something on Facesnake earlier which sums up my sentiments :-

 

"Martin McGuinness was an unapologetic, murdering terrorist, but thats OK because he was involved in the peace process. Thats like saying Jimmy Saville was an horrific paedo but its OK because he did lots for charity. Get a grip."