j_jza80 Posted November 10, 2016 Author Share Posted November 10, 2016 At least the liberal-types aren't renown for their violence when things don't go their way... . When have their been any examples of far right violence in the UK recently? You could use Jo Cox as an example, though ironically just weeks before her tragedy she was getting some serious abuse from far left Corbynites. But equally, there was that poor chap who was murdered recently for nothing more than being 'a Tory' http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/10/rage-politics-and-the-murder-of-a-friend/ The threat of the far right is nothing but a diversionary tactic, perpetuated by the far left. BNP and EDL are all but finished as political forces. Which political force is currently engaging in bigotry? That would be the left wing brownshirts of Momentum. Rife anti-Semitism, gender segregation at several meetings, and even homophobic abuse directed against Corbyns opponents within Labour. The British left have even become hysterical nationalists, though that nationalism is directed to a non existent European single state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wonga Spar Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 When have their been any examples of far right violence in the UK recently? You could use Jo Cox as an example, though ironically just weeks before her tragedy she was getting some serious abuse from far left Corbynites. But equally, there was that poor chap who was murdered recently for nothing more than being 'a Tory' http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/10/rage-politics-and-the-murder-of-a-friend/ The threat of the far right is nothing but a diversionary tactic, perpetuated by the far left. BNP and EDL are all but finished as political forces. Which political force is currently engaging in bigotry? That would be the left wing brownshirts of Momentum. Rife anti-Semitism, gender segregation at several meetings, and even homophobic abuse directed against Corbyns opponents within Labour. The British left have even become hysterical nationalists, though that nationalism is directed to a non existent European single state. Aww man c'mon, I really wasn't looking to get into all this. Do I really need a disclaimer after every point I make that says "I AM NOT TALKING SMACK ABOUT THE RIGHT"? You must know you drew a conclusion there from something that I didn't really say, or even imply (intentionally anyway). Sorry, I'll rephrase- I'd rather have my angry protesters shouting and stamping their feet than shooting people or feeling a new-found justification for violence. The way you phrased your question is problematic in itself, as there haven't really been much publicised violence in the UK recently at all. The few one-off events the media jump on (like Joe Cox) wouldn't really be fair for me to use either, as it'd be highly hypocritical of me to suggest her murder represent a larger violent trend within the far-right, and simultaneously preach that we shouldn't turn away refugees for reasons of national safety because of a few isolated incidents. I'm genuinely surprised you mentioned the momentum/anti-semitism/"a few meetings thing". Most of the outrage towards this has come from lefty news outlets, and oh yeah, the right just elected Mr.Trump. Please, let's not go there, if you're going to get outraged by things like this, at least be consistent in your outrage. The hate crime spike since Brexit is well documented, but I'll assume you don't wipe the right with the same sized brush you appear to wipe the left with. Being really honest, I don't even think either party is particularly prone to violence, if they were I'm fairly sure one of the US candidates would have been assassinated by now. I'm intrigued by your suggestion that the left have taken on a 'new form' of nationalism, I haven't read that before and I genuinely like what you're saying. But until they start preaching hate (see previous disclaimer), or somebody goes on a shooting-spree protesting for feminism, representation of minorities, planned parenthood or climate change however, I ain't concerned. I really don't want to end up pissing off another bunch of members for having this conversation.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbeh Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 When have their been any examples of far right violence in the UK recently? . Erm, EDL? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted November 10, 2016 Author Share Posted November 10, 2016 Erm, EDL? A group which is getting weaker by the year, whose idea of a protest is meeting at a pub and boring people with tales of muslamic Ray guns. They're pathetic, laughed at, and as I said, when was the last time there was any sort of major incident involving those clowns? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted November 10, 2016 Author Share Posted November 10, 2016 . The hate crime spike since Brexit is well documented, but I'll assume you don't wipe the right with the same sized brush you appear to wipe the left with. Coincidentally, the spike in hate crimes happened when the police changed the way that hate crimes were recorded... A few extra incidents of hate crime, though deplorable, aren't surprising, given the nature of the political debate. Both tge left and right are equally to blame for stirring up that hatred though. I have no horse in your left / right race. I just hate political hypocrisy, such as the left claiming they're non violent, when the worst attrocites of the 20th century were committed by communist regimes. It may do you credit to familiarise yourself with 'horseshoe theory'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbeh Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 A group which is getting weaker by the year, whose idea of a protest is meeting at a pub and boring people with tales of muslamic Ray guns. They're pathetic, laughed at, and as I said, when was the last time there was any sort of major incident involving those clowns? Or have they simply been adsorbed into the likes of UKIP and now go round beating up Polish immigrants after the election? But yes, the muslamic ray guns was a classic They are still knocking about: http://www.lutontoday.co.uk/news/crime/luton-man-in-court-over-edl-protest-outside-mosque-1-7450572 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted November 10, 2016 Author Share Posted November 10, 2016 Unfortunately, the presence of Islamists in Luton will draw out the far right. A self fulfilling cycle of hatred. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Massey Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 This guy says it better than I could. Explains who is to blame and why. https://www.facebook.com/JonathanPieReporter/videos/1044777035645189/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbeh Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 This guy says it better than I could. Explains who is to blame and why. https://www.facebook.com/JonathanPieReporter/videos/1044777035645189/ Good link! - I like this guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted November 10, 2016 Author Share Posted November 10, 2016 Yep, that was excellent. Another insight, albeit a more in-depth one by John Harris. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/10/donald-trump-brexit-us I know many will regard the guardian as a rag like tge express or mail, but Harris is an excellent journalist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wonga Spar Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 Good link! - I like this guy Agreed, seems on the money. Much easier said than done though. Debating with people who at least consider they might be misinformed is incredibly easy/rewarding, debating with people who're certain they're right is impossible (that goes for both sides). Additionally, doing this online is exponentially harder, it's incredibly easy to weave and weasel around with language until your point stands. Go and watch interviews with voters if you want to see how quickly people crumble when the other 70% of how humans communicate is thrown into play. I don't wanna keep returning to the education thing, but things like this solidify why the school environment with teachers/lecturers is so important, it's meant to challenge you, broaden your perspective and force you to reconsider your outlooks. Maybe I'm wrong, but it's where I saw most of my friends change and most of my opinions shift anyway. That said, engaging with people that share your viewpoint, and those people alone, helps nothing. You put 100 SJW's in a room together and the only thing they'll leave feeling is more justified in their outrage. The same thing occurs on the opposite end of the spectrum (see voting habits of rural areas). Engaging with people you don't share views with helps nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Massey Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 And the left are showing how good they are, verbally attacking anyone who has a different opinion with them, by shouting racist, bigot sexist blah blah Oh and the violent protests. Looks like more people need a safe space Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbeh Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 And the left are showing how good they are, verbally attacking anyone who has a different opinion with them, by shouting racist, bigot sexist blah blah Oh and the violent protests. Looks like more people need a safe space Bit unfair mate, heard the term 'Remoaners' or fear mongers being shouted down at people who have a different opinion to Leavers? Bully tactics to shut people up. It happens on both sides. Wonga.. agree with you totally on the post above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted November 11, 2016 Author Share Posted November 11, 2016 Bit unfair mate, heard the term 'Remoaners' or fear mongers being shouted down at people who have a different opinion to Leavers? Bully tactics to shut people up. It happens on both sides. There's a bit of difference between being called a moaner and being called a thick racist Besides, the term 'moaner' is aimed at those who will not honour the democratic exercise they participated in, not every remain voter, the majority of whom accept the result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbeh Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 I dont think anyones called anyone on here a thick racist Its not about honoring a democratic vote, even Farage has said the referendum was just advisory! I know what you're trying to say tho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted November 11, 2016 Author Share Posted November 11, 2016 I dont think anyones called anyone on here a thick racist Its not about honoring a democratic vote, even Farage has said the referendum was just advisory! I know what you're trying to say tho No, not on here, but it has most certainly been happening. Have a look on any left wing / remain media / social media outlet, and you will see a lots of use of "thick" "uneducated" "far right" "traitors" "bigots" "racists" etc. The irony is of course, that many of these people are avid Corbynites / Bennites, whose leaders spent their careers campaigning against the EU The referendum was advisory, the legislation was worded that way. But the government also pledged to implement the result, and 6:1 of all MP's voted for it, so it is also binding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbeh Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 Mate there will be thick idiots and racists on both sides - such is the mesh of society. The difference is one side was campaigning for anti immigration, like in the US, spouting off about immigrants, mexicans, muslims etc.. you can understand why people who support the person who said these things are labelled that because its as if they are voting for that agenda (when we know that much of it was bluff and there are many other valid reasons too.) Agreed, but you don't blindly walk down the Article 50 route without figuring out what you're going to do, that's economic suicide... so from that perspective I think its right to debate what/how we want to be as a country afterwards. I dont think many people did any serious research into the impact of the vote and were sold on things like less immigrants, bringing England back and more money for the NHS... for which the Leave campaign is now being sued. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted November 11, 2016 Author Share Posted November 11, 2016 Mate there will be thick idiots and racists on both sides - such is the mesh of society. The difference is one side was campaigning for anti immigration, like in the US, spouting off about immigrants, mexicans, muslims etc.. you can understand why people who support the person who said these things are labelled that because its as if they are voting for that agenda (when we know that much of it was bluff and there are many other valid reasons too.) Agreed, but you don't blindly walk down the Article 50 route without figuring out what you're going to do, that's economic suicide... so from that perspective I think its right to debate what/how we want to be as a country afterwards. I dont think many people did any serious research into the impact of the vote and were sold on things like less immigrants, bringing England back and more money for the NHS... for which the Leave campaign is now being sued. It isn't racist or xenophobic to oppose open door immigration though, it has just been labelled that by no borders types who have no logical argument for their position. In fact, I would argue that a system that grants white European majority countries free movement, and not others, is inherently racist. There was definitely some pandering to xenophobia in UKIPs sickening refugee posters (which were quickly withdrawn once they realised how stupid that was), but they weren't even part of the official leave campaign. I agree with the need for parliamentary scrutiny, the government should be held to account. However, remainers in parliament (some 70% of all MPs) equally shouldn't be allowed to abuse their privilege to dilute the outcome of the referendum. Both official campaigns, including the PM himself, stated that leaving the EU meant leaving the single market, something some MP's are opposing on a technicality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbeh Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 You and I are looking at it from different angles, your use of the word 'dilute' for example, where I'd just say scrutinise or debate. You fear that you wont get what you want or believed you were voting for... but no specifics about what you were getting were actually put in the referendum... so leaving the EU has many connotations... maybe the expectation from having this referendum just set the bar too high for what we'd end up with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted November 11, 2016 Author Share Posted November 11, 2016 I just posted up a video of all the major players in both Leave and Remain stating we would be leaving the single market That isn't some subtle connotation, it was a major factor to people voting both leave and remain This is what the governments official leaflet (remain propaganda) had to say about the Single Market What happens if we leave? Voting to leave the EU would create years of uncertainty and potential economic disruption. This would reduce investment and cost jobs. The Government judges it could result in 10 years or more of uncertainty as the UK unpicks our relationship with the EU and renegotiates new arrangements with the EU and over 50 other countries around the world. Some argue that we could strike a good deal quickly with the EU because they want to keep access to our market. But the Government’s judgement is that it would be much harder than that – less than 8% of EU exports come to the UK while 44% of UK exports go to the EU. No other country has managed to secure significant access to the Single Market, without having to: • follow EU rules over which they have no real say • pay into the EU • accept EU citizens living and working in their country A more limited trade deal with the EU would give the UK less access to the Single Market than we have now – including for services, which make up almost 80% of the UK economy. For example, Canada’s deal with the EU will give limited access for services, it has so far been seven years in the making and is still not in force. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/515068/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk.pdf The thing is, many remain MPs couldn't care less about the single market. They want to keep free movement, but refuse to be honest about it because mass immigration is electoral suicide at the moment. If they are allowed to gerrymander the referendum result into something else entirely, all they will do is reinvigorate a dying UKIP. Given the US have just elected Donald Trump, and our Labour party is on the verge of collapse, throwing petrol on the UKIP fire is the last thing we want to be doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbeh Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 I dont think MP's are going to vote against the referendum result.. if they did we'd be looking at a new Guy Fawkes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formatzero Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 It's amazing to think for years now, in the middle east, we have been bombing the hell out of folks and getting rid of dictators telling them to have a democracy ,when in our own country and the u.s.a a democratic result has people going nut's saying democracy has failed!Seems it only fails when you dont get the result you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbeh Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 Its both pretty much a near 50/50 vote so they're very divisive, as are the people and topics. Nothing wrong with protesting providing it doesnt turn into violence.. after all that's a democratic right also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 It's amazing to think for years now, in the middle east, we have been bombing the hell out of folks and getting rid of dictators telling them to have a democracy ,when in our own country and the u.s.a a democratic result has people going nut's saying democracy has failed!Seems it only fails when you dont get the result you want. Exactly - hence the call for a 2nd referendum for Brexit by some MPs + a 2nd Devo one by that Scottish lass Sturgeon.......the double standards are obvious for all to see Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 Democracy only works if you choose the correct answer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.