rider Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 HFC's were introduced as a low ozone depleting replacement to CFC refrigerants 25 years ago but now it is their turn to be phased out in favour of lower global warming and ozone depleting alternatives. Old CFC 12 air con systems could be retrofitted to HFC 134a with a gas, desiccant and compressor oil change. The gas molecule size was smaller so it was also recommended to change hoses to lower the seepage rate through the hose material. All in all, something that wasn't great for the compressor life and also wasn't cheap. Now, R134a is on the phase out list and it will end it application in new vehicles by 2021. I'd recommend that anyone with a/c cars who is competent working around an a/c system buys themselves a 10kg cylinder some time over the next 4 years, with a set of gauges and charging valves so they will be able to top up their own systems ready for when R134a ceases production and is no longer available. That'll be a much easier and cheaper option to retrofitting to a new refrigerant when a system requires servicing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooter Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 Interesting but if it ends 'new' car application in 2021, then they must still be able to refill these for 10 odd years, they can't surely stop supply/refilling with R134a? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rider Posted October 27, 2016 Author Share Posted October 27, 2016 (edited) In the EU r134a was phased out in 2011 for new builds for lower GWP alternatives and it will be phased out completely by 2017 across Europe. The 2021 date is for a ban in new builds in the USA. Refrigerants just die one day. When the OE market goes the chemical companies no longer make the product or they get banned under the Montreal Protocol revisions. There is no requirement to stock fluids and gasses that I am aware as part of the 10 year service and body parts arrangement car manufacturers have. Once a product is banned then no one can legally sell it, there is no actual ban date yet but there will be one assigned at some point unless it is just allowed to fade away as no longer commercially viable to produce. I'd assume most Supra owners now see owning their cars in 10 or 20 years as an option so the non availability of R134a is something that those owners will have to face at some point. http://refrigeranthq.com/when-is-r-134a-being-phased-out/ Edited October 27, 2016 by rider (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evinX Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 Scare mongering, thats all. Im not worried. Its happened to many cars over the years and theres always a safer alternative, wont be any different for our Supras. Most Toyotas use 134A...itll be around for a fair while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rider Posted October 27, 2016 Author Share Posted October 27, 2016 I wouldn't necessarily regard legislation incumbent on signatory Nations to the Montreal Protocol as scare mongering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 I binned my AC a long time ago Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evinX Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 I wouldn't necessarily regard legislation incumbent on signatory Nations to the Montreal Protocol as scare mongering. I have no idea what you just said, but i still aint worried. Either R134A will be available, or a sub standard. Just like alot of OEM fluids which are recommended have been switched over to a alternative and are safe to use, 10s of 10,000s Toyotas use this, and will still be on the road by 20whatever. Something will be out there, its not just Supras, but 70% of all Toyotas Worldwide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rider Posted October 27, 2016 Author Share Posted October 27, 2016 I have no idea what you just said, but i still aint worried. Either R134A will be available, or a sub standard. . I don't know - I haven't kept up with the alternatives to know if the alternatives are drop in replacements. I do know you cannot top off one refrigerant with another as two refrigerants together do not act like a direct blend, the boiling properties and pressures go somewhere else entirely. It'll also come down to the solubility of the refrigerant in the compressor oil as well, is it even soluble in current PAG oils? if not you will have an emulsion going round your a/c system which will have very poor heat transfer performance in the evaporator. That's bad btw. If its more soluble in the compressor oil it'll thin it down possibly too low for the compressor to function. That's bad btw. you may well need a thicker or thinner oil to reflect a change in the refrigerant viscosity dilution. You really don't need to worry though. Your refrigeration engineer will be more than happy to change whatever needs changing. Alternatively you can buy a can or cylinder of R134a and be sorted for the next few decades. it really is a very simple choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooter Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 I hear you and didn't mean to be confrontational/dismissive, it's just that it should be a long way off before the availability will drop off...but it doesn't hurt to be prepared Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam27 Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 134A is very common on ships for A/C, domestic fridges and reefer plants, so there is no chance of production ending any time soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squiffy Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 dont worry about it, they will just sell a more eco friendly drop in replacement like they did when they phased out R22 refrigerant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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