Nodalmighty Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooter Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 I think there is a step when you need to run R888's or the like to retain decent traction, so will you run these or normal high quality summer tyres? personally I'd be happy with low to mid 500's on decent summer tyres, and mid to high 600's on R888 type tyres. But I've never had one, BPU+ only and so 'what do I know'?! I just think above 700bhp you are entering the land of diminishing returns, and unsolvable traction issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-Ricky Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 Thoughts? Before what happens? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nodalmighty Posted October 12, 2016 Author Share Posted October 12, 2016 Before what happens? It becomes undrivable. Assuming everything else is near perfect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wonga Spar Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 Can't comment from experience but everything I've heard/read suggests 500-600 is where the magic happens. Would like to be corrected on this but apparently beyond that the power-band in 2nd gear to 80-100mph which just wouldn't be fun off the track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellis Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 It becomes undrivable. Assuming everything else is near perfect. Depends who's driving!! BPU is manageable and offers a great balance of power and fun. As mentioned, 500bhp and above opens up a lot of other issues to address and take into consideration: suspension, brakes, tyres, wheels etc. Depends what you want to do with it. Is it a daily, a weekend princess or a track car? 400bhp in a daily with UK roads and weather is quite ample. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nodalmighty Posted October 12, 2016 Author Share Posted October 12, 2016 (edited) OK, Given the best of everything you can possibly buy, brakes, tyres, suspension etc. Any Engine you like (i.e Jamie P spec ) Same Question. Think along the lines of The Dyno Torque RX7 engine (6.9 Twin Turbo 1049whp @ 1bar) in a Supra. Too Much ? Edited October 12, 2016 by Nodalmighty (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Bullitt Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 I don't think it boils down to having the best of everything, reading several posts on here it's down to the age of the Supra the technology available at the time that was used. Have a chat with CW, he's always got very good info to pass on and as you know has a massive wealth of knowledge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nodalmighty Posted October 12, 2016 Author Share Posted October 12, 2016 Next Question , where do you go to map something like that. That was done on ProTuner's DD rolling road but they had to stop as the dyno was hurting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellis Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 I don't think it boils down to having the best of everything, reading several posts on here it's down to the age of the Supra the technology available at the time that was used. Have a chat with CW, he's always got very good info to pass on and as you know has a massive wealth of knowledge. Chris made a stock J-Spec on 16s dance! For me, somewhere between 400-500bhp gives you the best of all worlds. You want responsiveness, power and handling. Having driven stock UK and stock J-Spec, BPU UK and BPU J-Spec and been in big 600 and 700bhp singles, I'd always opt for the UK spec (or J-Spec) with CW suspension and CW decats and BPU set up. That was around the 400bhp mark and was beautifully responsive, powerful and handled so well. That though was a daily. For me though it was a great all rounder - you could tootle round town, pop to the shops, blat across Europe at a healthy pace, fling it around a track, embarrass just about anything on the road and didn't need to service it every 500 miles! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastcar Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 I think a lot of the problem over 700 isn't just traction! From what I have heard turbo lag is an issue too and takes the fun away! Personally i think anything past 600 on a road car is just pub talk and pienes waving but that's just my thoughts. Guess it would depend on you're driving style! If all you like doing is straight line pulls then big hp is for you, if you want to get in and out of twistys then a good suspension,brakes and tyre setup with a small single pulling 550 at the fly max would be my choice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nodalmighty Posted October 12, 2016 Author Share Posted October 12, 2016 Chris made a stock J-Spec on 16s dance! For me, somewhere between 400-500bhp gives you the best of all worlds. You want responsiveness, power and handling. Having driven stock UK and stock J-Spec, BPU UK and BPU J-Spec and been in big 600 and 700bhp singles, I'd always opt for the UK spec (or J-Spec) with CW suspension and CW decats and BPU set up. That was around the 400bhp mark and was beautifully responsive, powerful and handled so well. That though was a daily. For me though it was a great all rounder - you could tootle round town, pop to the shops, blat across Europe at a healthy pace, fling it around a track, embarrass just about anything on the road and didn't need to service it every 500 miles! Imagine you can have the Supra you just described but with 600 to 1000+whp on tap as and when required. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2 MSW Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 400-500hp with a decent suspension setup is perfect for road use. Only time you need over that is track use for big circuits like spa. Thats the only place this year I've had mine turned up to full power. The lag issue has gone away with modern turbo setups, the twin scroll manifolds and billet turbo tech have resolved that issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackyBoi Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 I think 600-700bhp is the sweet spot not only in terms of 'where the magic happens' but also best bang for your buck. Anymore than that and you're talking lots of money being spent on building the engine, upgrading drivetrain, brakes and tyres etc. I find that a 600bhp small single turbo with UK front brakes, 295 Michelin's and a well-balanced suspension setup is more than enough to keep a smile on my face by embarrassing most cars on the road whilst still being reliable and comfortable to drive regularly. Although if money was not an issue I'd argue the sweet spot for a Supra would be 1000bhp on a street setup, i.e maxing out a tiny turbo so as to not induce huge amounts of lag, cos there is no such thing as 'too much power' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el_bandido Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 Depends who's driving!! As mentioned, 500bhp and above opens up a lot of other issues to address and take into consideration: suspension, brakes, tyres, wheels etc.. Would you not consider all of these before upping the power? A standard power car would be a lot more capable with the proper suspension, brakes and tyres (and diff) set up than a 500hp car without any of those things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Bullitt Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 Chris made a stock J-Spec on 16s dance! A bit before my time unfortunately, I would have been great to see For me, somewhere between 400-500bhp gives you the best of all worlds. You want responsiveness, power and handling. Having driven stock UK and stock J-Spec, BPU UK and BPU J-Spec and been in big 600 and 700bhp singles, I'd always opt for the UK spec (or J-Spec) with CW suspension and CW decats and BPU set up. That was around the 400bhp mark and was beautifully responsive, powerful and handled so well. That though was a daily. For me though it was a great all rounder - you could tootle round town, pop to the shops, blat across Europe at a healthy pace, fling it around a track, embarrass just about anything on the road and didn't need to service it every 500 miles! This is what I am torn between, if the OEM tubbbies give up the ghost do I look at hybrids for that little extra power and accept they will be a tad slower than the j-specs or go single on a cast manifold which would totally change the car. Toyota certainly didn't expect owners to double and triple the stock power figure when building this car so as you say I'd imagine more conservative power is best even with brand new suspension components and CW's suspension. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShawnPreece Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 As mentioned a few times I think it depends on what your intended use is for the car and also if its a daily, im running just over 700 now and am going for more but thats only because I get a big buzz out of acceleration, I dont fly round corners and I have a daily so for my personal smiles it is higher bhp for straight line pulls Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellis Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 Imagine you can have the Supra you just described but with 600 to 1000+whp on tap as and when required. I wouldn't want it to be honest. I think 1,000bhp in a Supra is just undriveable and unusable. That's just a drag strip car. On most UK roads with road tyres you'd be upside down in a ditch on fire in no time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellis Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 A bit before my time unfortunately, I would have been great to see The man himself (full article available in the Dragonball 15 book - still available!!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nodalmighty Posted October 12, 2016 Author Share Posted October 12, 2016 It's very interesting that most of you don't actually want massive silly power but consider less is more. My engine is a LS2 Iron Block truck motor. Exactly the same as the alloy version but steel like the LSX. It will have an LS3 crank, h-section rods and forged pistons and LS3 big Valve CNC ported GM performance heads. Do I a) Keep it NA, high compression, big high lift roller cam and enjoy huge grunt and 600fwhp, or b) Low compression (9.2:1 0.8mm squish) turbo friendly cam and a pair of scrolls and enjoy anywhere from 700 to 1600fwhp. The compromise is build it Turbo spec and lose 100hp as an NA and then Turbo later when I get bored. With the exception of the turbo's the price is the much the same but component spec will differ in some area's (cam / Pistons). I planned a bit of drag, bit of track mainly road and as a promotional tool. I'm starting to think option A is the way to go. You have to bare in mind the torque curve is a wall from 2000 @ about 400lbs and will climb from there to about 600lbs @5250 and then do what ever the cam spec demand of it. It won't be slow but it won't drive like a traditional NA Supra either Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Style Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 Guess it depends on what you mean by too much I asked this question a while back and the general consensus from people that had been all the way up and down the horsepower range was that around 550-600whp on a fast spooling setup was the sweet spot in terms of enjoy-ability. But if you're talking too much power and torque in terms of breaking traction all the time, I'd say 800whp would be about the limit before you'd just be lighting up road legal tyres all the time in the lower gears EDIT: Just saw your post at the same time as me. If you're wanting a street car....Option A) Or C) Supercharge it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellis Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 This is what I am torn between, if the OEM tubbbies give up the ghost do I look at hybrids for that little extra power and accept they will be a tad slower than the j-specs or go single on a cast manifold which would totally change the car. Toyota certainly didn't expect owners to double and triple the stock power figure when building this car so as you say I'd imagine more conservative power is best even with brand new suspension components and CW's suspension. Exactly! It would change the car immensely. I know there are those who say it can be done but my question is why? As Shawn says, his power is for straight line eye-widening, bum-clenching acceleration. Whilst everything can be changed to accommodate the extra power at what point does it just become impractical and more about a spending exercise just to prove a point. Anything is achievable with a big wallet but as was said above, does it just become a willy-waving contest at meets and down the pub. But back to the OP - what is the car for? Everyday? Weekends? Track? Strip? Usage is as much a factor as is power and torque. You can get monster BHP from a Supra (with the cash) but where could and would you use it. You can have as much fun with 320bhp with decent suspension, brakes and tyres as you can with 700bhp. It's about real world vs fantasy world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nodalmighty Posted October 12, 2016 Author Share Posted October 12, 2016 Or C) Supercharge it Indeed, Steves (Fearless) switchable supercharger got my attention. Big Blower and bug catcher out the bonnet mad max style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellis Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 How much power & Torque is to much in a Supra? If it breaks traction in every gear - too much. If you take your life in your hands every time you brake or try to go round a bend - too much. If it's undriveable apart from a straight line on a drag strip - too much. As you say about your plans, I'd much sooner have stacks of torque lower down the rev range than waiting for it all to happen at 5000rpm by which time everything else went home bored. Driving the Supra in TTC mode showed me just how little torque it had low down, it relies on tubbie one to give it the lift it needs at 2,500rpm. For real world driving it's all about the low to mid range pull that matters. But that's just a personal thing. For me, your option A is where I'd go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 With 600hp available from the v8 in NA form I would leave it like that and not have to worry about all the extra work involved with a turbo installation. Nice and easy to work on, dont have to worry about intercoolers, wastegates, all the extra weight two turbos and manifolds add etc... With a v8 I imagine the torque figure will be pretty close to the peak power, your biggest issue will be traction and drivetrain stress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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