Fatal crash at Nordschleife

[gordy.r]

I had seen some news floating about the German media today, but it has now been confirmed on BTG.

Sad news and thoughts go out to those affected

 

http://www.bridgetogantry.com/two-dead-three-injured-in-kesselchen-crash/

 

 

Stay safe anyone going for the remaining TF dates this year.

[bignum]

Happened where my mates all spun off in the scoobies last year, called kesselchen 4th left, notorious danger spot as theres no warning light across there and most cars will be doing 100+, real shame for this to happen and the reason i don't push things on tourist days anymore.

[bignum]

The civic that got hit is a right mess, this is the problem with taking "normal" cars around any track!

http://www.swr.de/landesschau-aktuell/rp/touristenfahrer-auf-dem-nuerburgring-verunglueckt-offenbar-tote-bei-unfall-auf-der-nordschleife/-/id=1682/did=17837202/nid=1682/irsr9j/

Ah the civic hit the marshals car which was parked at the trackside.

[Tyson]

A cage would have probably saved his life and his passenger

[bignum]

A cage may have held the car together better but thats still some side impact. Other problem is only about half the people wear helmets on tourist days as its not compulsory.

[ManwithSupra]

Other problem is only about half the people wear helmets on tourist days as its not compulsory.

 

Helmet not compulsory!! - I think that's completely nuts.. I will be interested to find out what actually caused their deaths (as sad as it is) I would not be surprised if its BFT to the head.

I deal now quite a lot in motorsport safety kit etc and after seeing some of the things I have now, I would never venture out on a race track (track day or not) unless you have a minimum of a helmet, cage, harness and a suitable seat.

 

Of course that will never happen as its just too much for someone who wants to take their car around a track now and then and well no one would do it, but at least a helmet.. blimey.

Its so sad to lose people on track days, it's very rare it happens but it really does show what can happen if you don't take really basic precautions, RIP to all the people that died and speedy recovery for all injured.

[Dnk]

A helmet should be compulsory on any track event

[Richie_k83]

Terrible news, not sure of the ins and outs of what safety gear they had, but there is only so much a car can take from a side impact...

 

That being said, the car should be sufficiently equiped as far as safety goes, respective of what is being asked of the car.

 

Case in point, if anyone saw this video doing the rounds on Facebook this weekend, the guy lost it at around 200mph and the car rolled.

 

Given the speed, imo, he should of had a minimum of a full cage, seats, harnesses etc.

 

The half cage he had just about saved them from being crushed;

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beuFXAn5J10

[bignum]

Thats the crazy thing about touristenfahrten you just turn up buy a lap ticket and off you go, no experience no briefing no safety gear just arrive and drive!

[berg]

I was there at the weekend and saw them lapping all day

Unfortunately watched these people drive past us around 60 seconds before impact

 

The two marshalls are still in a bad way from what ive heard

 

 

 

[AJI]

Thats the crazy thing about touristenfahrten you just turn up buy a lap ticket and off you go, no experience no briefing no safety gear just arrive and drive!

 

This is true, but its mainly a 'crazy' idea from the perspective of most British. (Even though German road law applies).

There seems to be a different approach to the 'elf and safety in Europe where a more personally responsible attitude is adopted. (Much like in the majority of the rest of the world).

 

I think health and safety in the UK is a double edged sword.

On one side there is the protection in law that public inherent and employers/service providers must offer,....but on the other side it makes British people ignorant to the risks they take.

The risks are often hidden through restrictions in place for example.... this makes a lot of British also hidden from the reality when such restrictions are lifted.

 

For the likes of the N'ring, I think people just need to wake up to the fact that if they choose to 'race' (either others or the clock), then they open themselves to the risks involved.

Maybe these unfortunate guys did actually recognise the risks? Who's to say, ... but the unfortunate thing is, is they they paid the ultimate price.

 

What I hope doesn't happen is that such actions don't bring in restrictions at the N'ring for everyone else who is free to make their own choices.

 

We have to remember that life is a risk in just about everything we do. Many enjoy a heightened amount of risk, and will pay good money to do so. I know I have done many laps at the N'ring, I actually enjoy the risk and allowing it to challenge me, its something that makes you feel alive.

[Mike2JZ]

This is true, but its mainly a 'crazy' idea from the perspective of most British. (Even though German road law applies).

There seems to be a different approach to the 'elf and safety in Europe where a more personally responsible attitude is adopted. (Much like in the majority of the rest of the world).

 

I think health and safety in the UK is a double edged sword.

On one side there is the protection in law that public inherent and employers/service providers must offer,....but on the other side it makes British people ignorant to the risks they take.

The risks are often hidden through restrictions in place for example.... this makes a lot of British also hidden from the reality when such restrictions are lifted.

 

For the likes of the N'ring, I think people just need to wake up to the fact that if they choose to 'race' (either others or the clock), then they open themselves to the risks involved.

Maybe these unfortunate guys did actually recognise the risks? Who's to say, ... but the unfortunate thing is, is they they paid the ultimate price.

 

What I hope doesn't happen is that such actions don't bring in restrictions at the N'ring for everyone else who is free to make their own choices.

 

We have to remember that life is a risk in just about everything we do. Many enjoy a heightened amount of risk, and will pay good money to do so. I know I have done many laps at the N'ring, I actually enjoy the risk and allowing it to challenge me, its something that makes you feel alive.

 

I agree

 

At the end of the day those people are making their own decision to drive on the ring. Whilst being a public road it certainly isn't just a pop down the shops.

 

Given the history of the track, you would have to be seriously ignorant not to realize that the worst could happen on that track regardless if you are a regular person or niki lauda.

 

Obviously tragedies like this happen and it's not nice, but thats the risk you take. No one is forcing them any of the involved parties to be there at the end of the day, everyone is choosing to be there and must accept the risks in turn.

 

If the ring is to be open to the public as a public road then enforcing hardcore safety policies will kill off the participation of most drivers and I don't believe should be enforced. That level of safety should be reserved for those competing in races.

 

That said, Reactive driving to situations that only become apparent as you turn a corner at silly speeds is inviting accidents to happen and is a huge gamble for most drivers. I do believe increasing awareness of track dangers via electronic flagging systems should be improved as a precaution.

[ManwithSupra]

What I hope doesn't happen is that such actions don't bring in restrictions at the N'ring for everyone else who is free to make their own choices.

We have to remember that life is a risk in just about everything we do. Many enjoy a heightened amount of risk, and will pay good money to do so. I know I have done many laps at the N'ring, I actually enjoy the risk and allowing it to challenge me, its something that makes you feel alive.

 

So you are telling me, that not wearing any safety gear when on track, makes you feel alive because you know you might kill yourself.

I have seen accidents where peoples heads have burst open from a low speed impact (under 15 mph) because they were not wearing BASIC safety gear like a helmet, can you honestly tell me that they were enjoying driving at 15 mph and it was "challenging" before their head impacted something hard and burst open spilling its contents...

 

I too agree there is a risk in everything we do and a higher level or risk is fun but even so not taking BASIC safety precautions is plain dumb.

 

I mean you would not bungee jump off a bridge if you knew the bungee cord needed replacing

You would not let someone off the street that you don't know re-pack your parachute for a jump.

You would not get on a aircraft if the pilot openly said I'm not going to bother with pre-flight checks I'm going to leave it to chance.

 

There is risk and there is needless risk, yes more risk equals more fun but there is a fine line between risk and idiocy, life is fragile.. yes have fun but for gods sake don't be reckless with it.

I mean even a helmet does not guarantee protection or that it will do you any good in an accident (some speeds and crashes it wont help at all) but for the majority of deaths which are lower speed BFT accidents could be avoided for as little as £50.. isn't that worth it?

 

All I'm saying is that if you don't take BASIC precautions on much elevated levels of risk then you are simply a fool.

[Mike2JZ]

So you are telling me, that not wearing any safety gear when on track, makes you feel alive because you know you might kill yourself.

I have seen accidents where peoples heads have burst open from a low speed impact (under 15 mph) because they were not wearing BASIC safety gear like a helmet, can you honestly tell me that they were enjoying driving at 15 mph and it was "challenging" before their head impacted something hard and burst open spilling its contents...

 

I too agree there is a risk in everything we do and a higher level or risk is fun but even so not taking BASIC safety precautions is plain dumb.

 

I mean you would not bungee jump off a bridge if you knew the bungee cord needed replacing

You would not let someone off the street that you don't know re-pack your parachute for a jump.

You would not get on a aircraft if the pilot openly said I'm not going to bother with pre-flight checks I'm going to leave it to chance.

 

There is risk and there is needless risk, yes more risk equals more fun but there is a fine line between risk and idiocy, life is fragile.. yes have fun but for gods sake don't be reckless with it.

I mean even a helmet does not guarantee protection or that it will do you any good in an accident (some speeds and crashes it wont help at all) but for the majority of deaths which are lower speed BFT accidents could be avoided for as little as £50.. isn't that worth it?

 

All I'm saying is that if you don't take BASIC precautions on much elevated levels of risk then you are simply a fool.

 

"Careful dear, don't forget your 6 point harness and full roll cage. Driving to Morrisons can be dangerous!"

[ManwithSupra]

"Careful dear, don't forget your 6 point harness and full roll cage. Driving to Morrisons can be dangerous!"

 

Yeah cos driving to Morrisons is the same as driving on a race track in speeds in excess of 100mph.

Good one.

[berg]

Seeing the car lap in person, and the way it was being driven it "SHOULD" have had a roll cage in my opinion, i didnt notice if they had helmets on thier final lap, but they werent wearing any on the morning

 

The guy clearly had track knowledge and was not hanging around on any part of the track, once you get competitive with yourself, its time to get some form of safety gear as you are pushing limits

[Mike2JZ]

Yeah cos driving to Morrisons is the same as driving on a race track in speeds in excess of 100mph.

Good one.

 

It's a public road when anyone is on. Rules and regulations apply from the road. And you were the one quoting heads exploding at 15mph.

 

I agree with the safety concerns, but in my view you either make the ring not open as public road, or you do and don't get anal about safety.

[ManwithSupra]

It's a public road when anyone is on. Rules and regulations apply from the road. And you were the one quoting heads exploding at 15mph.

I agree with the safety concerns, but in my view you either make the ring not open as public road, or you do and don't get anal about safety.

 

OK, Either way you look at it, you go on the ring ONLY to drive fast and drive you're cars ass off, right? Not to go somewhere or pop to morrisons or for a nice sunday drive. You go on there to drive fast legally... yes?

 

The BIG difference is that 100% of cars on the ring at the time are people who are using it as a race track not a public road, therefore the risk is higher than that of a normal road, not just because you are driving fast but because of others too... Hell you may be a driving god, but some dipstick who thinks he is Hamilton but has as much talent as a grape could crash into you. Yes you could say the risk is similar on the road, however 95% of people are NOT traveling at race track speeds and not driving the ass off the car.. hence not needing the additional safety over and above the standard stuff in the car.

 

I have seen people who have had accidents when not wearing a helmet and its not pretty, in fact most could have survived if they wore a helmet, there is no getting away from that - that was my reason for mentioning people can die from a 15mph impact, it does not take much to kill you and putting yourself in a situation where there is a much higher risk of something happening at speeds way in excess of 100mph simply means you are an idiot if you don't try and negate some of the risk.

 

It is the RISK you calculate.. what is the risk something will happen with 100% of cars and people going for it with mixed experience verses 95% of people driving normally on a normal road!! Its POLES apart.. The RISK is higher on the ring therefore get a helmet.

 

What you are basically saying is, its like walking into park in an active war zone during a firefight and not wearing anything but your T-shirt and shorts.. and your excuse is "Well its a Park therefore I don't need it"...

You getting sarcastic and trying to compare the Ring to a local road going to Morrisons is absolute tosh.

[chazuk]

He was obviously a tool he was wearing a helmet but didn't make his GF wear one

 

[bignum]

Before and after wow, well if he had the helmet on for the "final" run he still didn`t make it.

[Annabella]

That's so sad.

[Mike2JZ]

OK, Either way you look at it, you go on the ring ONLY to drive fast and drive you're cars ass off, right? Not to go somewhere or pop to morrisons or for a nice sunday drive. You go on there to drive fast legally... yes?

 

The BIG difference is that 100% of cars on the ring at the time are people who are using it as a race track not a public road, therefore the risk is higher than that of a normal road, not just because you are driving fast but because of others too... Hell you may be a driving god, but some dipstick who thinks he is Hamilton but has as much talent as a grape could crash into you. Yes you could say the risk is similar on the road, however 95% of people are NOT traveling at race track speeds and not driving the ass off the car.. hence not needing the additional safety over and above the standard stuff in the car.

 

I have seen people who have had accidents when not wearing a helmet and its not pretty, in fact most could have survived if they wore a helmet, there is no getting away from that - that was my reason for mentioning people can die from a 15mph impact, it does not take much to kill you and putting yourself in a situation where there is a much higher risk of something happening at speeds way in excess of 100mph simply means you are an idiot if you don't try and negate some of the risk.

 

It is the RISK you calculate.. what is the risk something will happen with 100% of cars and people going for it with mixed experience verses 95% of people driving normally on a normal road!! Its POLES apart.. The RISK is higher on the ring therefore get a helmet.

 

What you are basically saying is, its like walking into park in an active war zone during a firefight and not wearing anything but your T-shirt and shorts.. and your excuse is "Well its a Park therefore I don't need it"...

You getting sarcastic and trying to compare the Ring to a local road going to Morrisons is absolute tosh.

 

Right but if you give people the choice like they have now, you end up with situations like this.

If the road is classed as public during tourist sessions then you can't expect people to wear safety gear even if it is the wiser choice and you can't point the finger of them being fools.

Driving to morrisons could involve a massive accident, it only takes one idiot/mistake. Sure the chance is higher on the ring, but if regulations don't dictate otherwise then it will keep happening regardless of people being foolish or not. That is the root of the safety issue in my opinion

[AJI]

OK, Either way you look at it, you go on the ring ONLY to drive fast and drive you're cars ass off, right?

The BIG difference is that 100% of cars on the ring at the time are people who are using it as a race track not a public road

 

That's not strictly true. Some go for the experience of just going around the track. You get everything from 2CV's, camper vans, 52-seat tour buses and even the likes of the scumball rally in their £200 4-wheeled boxes going round. They, along with many others, will treat the road/track as a public toll road and not a race event.

 

 

The RISK is higher on the ring therefore get a helmet.

This is what is left to the individual to decide and I'm glad its not regulated/restricted along with all the other regulations required for a 'race'/trackday event. The good thing about the N'ring is that anyone can turn up and drive, at any time during the public open dates.

I hope the authorities over there do not turn it in to a 'trackday' event only, as that would then require a whole load of paper work, proofs, insurances, equipment, modifications etc. etc. that go along with your typical trackday event where by the organiser takes on much more liability.

 

It should remain that the individual driver should be accountable for his/her actions at the N'ring, just like its always been. The sad thing is, is that some simply don't understand the meaning or have any sensible experience of being personally responsible.