Metal shavings in oil

[msupra1]

So the Supra was parked for 5 months in the off-season, it had quite a bit of sludge in the oil as a result of not driving it, just starting it up to move around. So changed the oil to regular oil, ran it for like 30km, and then flushed it out again and put in good oil. That oil maybe had 200km on it.

 

So my mechanic / engine builder was flushing it today again and said there is a lot of metal shavings in the oil.

Oil was being flushed again to take care of an oil pan leak.

 

We were prepping to throw the car on the dyno next week. It was making about 700bhp, or a little under for the past year.

The new tune was going to see about 850bhp.

 

There is a lot of money into the car, everything is done to the head and whatnot. The only thing that remains unopened is the stock bottom end with pistons/rods.

 

 

Should I be worried because I am. I was planning to eventually build the bottom end but in no rush as I didn't want to spend that money this year. Even if I build it, I won't be pushing it past 850bhp. That's more than enough for what I'm doing with the car.

Edited April 1, 2016 by msupra1 (see edit history)

[msupra1]

It's a 2JZ-GTE with 140k KMs (87k miles)

[Tricky-Ricky]

If the mechanic had the sump pan off and found metal in the oil, did he not think to check the bottom end bearings for play? it would be easy to pull the big end or mains caps and see what state the bearings are in?

[j_jza80]

As above, seems strange your mechanic doesn't have an opinion on the matter.

 

But to answer your question, metal in the oil is not a good thing. if it is not unduly smoking etc from the exhaust, or noisy, I would fit a magnetic sump plug, run the car a bit and then drop the oil again in the near future. Bare in mind that you risk damaging the block and the components though...

 

I take it you know you are running your engine way past the accepted limits of the stock bottom end?

[msupra1]

700bhp on the stock bottom end is peanuts.

 

I thought the general guide for the 2JZ is to keep the torque at or under the 600wtq range.

To the wheels I wasn't even making 500wtq.

 

 

I'll be talking to them later today in person. I just found this news out not too long ago so I don't have full details.

 

I just happened to install the magnetic drain plug too.

[j_jza80]

700bhp on the stock bottom end is peanuts.

 

I thought the general guide for the 2JZ is to keep the torque at or under the 600wtq range.

To the wheels I wasn't even making 500wtq.

 

There's more to it than numbers, it's the way it's delivered, and the way the car is driven too. For example, the Audi ABY tuners can run circa 400-450hp safely on a stock bottom end using a GT35R or similar in relative safety. Try that with the harder hitting RS2 Turbo and it's not uncommon to end up with a bent rod.

 

On a 2JZ that's being used properly, on the road or track, anything above 600-650lb/ft from the engine and I'd want to be running full APR hardware on the bottom end, head bolts etc. I would probably give the engine a refresh too, new bearings, rings, seals etc. I'm not saying they can't be pushed further, I'm well aware of the claims that some dyno queens in the US have seen over 1000hp on an unopened block. But it's an extremely expensive gamble.

[Guest mickey16]

metal in the sump is most likely the beginning of a spun rod bearing .If you continue to drive it this will lead to low oil pressure and major damage to the engine.

[msupra1]

metal in the sump is most likely the beginning of a spun rod bearing .If you continue to drive it this will lead to low oil pressure and major damage to the engine.

 

That's what the shop told me pretty much in brief.

 

 

I will feel more guilty to leave it as is and cause further damage. So I think I'm out of luck and just have to get it done once and for all now.

 

My head has all brand new gaskets, seals, apr head studs, any hardware, and new cams/springs and retainers... so my head has less than 5000km on it... it was machined as well.

[Tricky-Ricky]

Saying 700BHP on a stock bottom end is peanuts, and just assuming everything will be fine is rather blinkered, you had head work done yet didn't bother with the bottom end seems a bit daft to me, have you noticed lower oil pressure recently?

The giveaway here is finding sludge in the oil after just a short time of not running, what oil where you using?

Leaving it will just result in more expense, and likely a new engine when a rod goes through the block.

[msupra1]

Just generally speaking regarding the power ^ I drive the car hard too so I always have it at the back of my head things may not hold up.

 

So here's a photo. They drained a little bit more oil out the motor. And you can ignore the upper part of the photo as bucket had some gravel in it.. but the shavings are most obvious towards the bottom. The flash and camera makes it pop more than it does in person... but its a very very fine. Just has a glimmer to it under certain lighting.

 

 

Also I should note. I was running this oil on a new freshly rebuilt turbo, and it had a new oil feed line.

The cam covers were also off for a rebuild. Any possibility of any of that having an affect on it?

 

I'm putting new oil into the motor, drive it around lightly for a day, and rain the oil and see if the shavings are still coming up. If they are will move forward with building the bottom.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 2, 2016 by msupra1 (see edit history)

[mellonman]

Can I just say using a old contaminated drain can is not a good idea as it could come from any of the previous drains, also is that the condition of your oil still coming out after your flushes ?

[Tricky-Ricky]

If that oil has only been in the engine for 200 k and you have that amount of metal I would say you definitely have a bearing on its way out, its unlikely that a new plane bearing turbo would shed that much metal, if it did its faulty, personally I would be investigating further, but its your engine.

[Chris Wilson]

700bhp on the stock bottom end is peanuts.

 

Yeah, right, of course it is. 85,000 mile engine..... I would be for fully stripping that engine and

see what's failed. If I was a bettting man I would say look at the thrust bearings.

[and1c]

Personally I wouldn't run that again until the engine has had a full stripdown and inspection. It could be the difference between repairable and scrap.

[msupra1]

If that oil has only been in the engine for 200 k and you have that amount of metal I would say you definitely have a bearing on its way out, its unlikely that a new plane bearing turbo would shed that much metal, if it did its faulty, personally I would be investigating further, but its your engine.

 

This is what we are thinking.

 

Well I took the chance, put in new oil, drove it around a bit and flushed it.

The magnetic drain plug picked up metal shards... bits of metal. I didn't see It with my own eyes first time but this is convincing enough.

 

So it time to strip this motor and get it fully built.

Edited April 4, 2016 by msupra1 (see edit history)

[herbiemercman]

So this guy got the point in the end, he got good advice.

Just a related question, is it possible to remove and replace a conrod shell or little end bearing with the engine in the car ? Herbie.

[Chris Wilson]

Yes, but this sounds like the start of a total cock up of a job. If the shell is damaged and shrapnel has gone through the engine, it will need a full strip and clean out, and the crank and rod removing and measuring for damage. You could change rod bearing with just the 2 sumps off and the engine supported on a beam across the inner wings, if you are a masochist. The head would have to come off to change a bush in a little end, although finding an undamaged stock rod would be cheaper than re-bushing and honing.

[msupra1]

Regardless of the cost, it will be done proper.

Once the motor is apart we'll see how things are looking. The motor will be fully stripped and machine shop will do a full cleaning of the block and whatever is required.

 

 

That previous photo I attached is actually inaccurate. That was dirt/gravel in the oil pan.

The shavings are much more fine. Almost the eye cant see it, very fine.

The only larger pieces of metal that we could find was on the magnetic drain plug.

 

Here is what I purchased,

CP pistons with upgraded wrist pins

BrianCrower HD rods

ARP main studs

Titan oil pump

head gasket

valve cover gasket kit

rear main seal

and will most likely also need new oil cooler.

anything else like bearings can be had locally.

 

Shooting for 900bhp now. My setup can make it no problem on E85.

[np89]

Regardless of the cost, it will be done proper.

Once the motor is apart we'll see how things are looking. The motor will be fully stripped and machine shop will do a full cleaning of the block and whatever is required.

 

 

That previous photo I attached is actually inaccurate. That was dirt/gravel in the oil pan.

The shavings are much more fine. Almost the eye cant see it, very fine.

The only larger pieces of metal that we could find was on the magnetic drain plug.

 

Here is what I purchased,

CP pistons with upgraded wrist pins

BrianCrower HD rods

ARP main studs

Titan oil pump

head gasket

valve cover gasket kit

rear main seal

and will most likely also need new oil cooler.

anything else like bearings can be had locally.

 

Shooting for 900bhp now. My setup can make it no problem on E85.

 

Nice parts list ! Id be wary of the titan oil pump though. Have been told by a well known builder the titan oil pumps are just oem pumps machined wider for a bigger gear but it significantly weakens the housing. This particular builder had a titan oil pump gear exit through the bonnet Once upon a time. Id go OEM standard on the pump

Edited April 6, 2016 by np89 (see edit history)