herbiemercman Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 Hi Everyone, I am fascinated and interested in how much a stock NA ECU is modified when the "Emange" software pigy back kit is fitted? I know from the technical help i have had for my NA/T from some members that you can answer this and i am sure, like me, there are other members who would like to know how this works, where it is located, how reliable, and what the alternatives are? Herbie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 If you understand it you'll not like it Crude, cheap, but in a totally lower league to a proper mappable, aftermarket ECU. But if it works and returns decent MPG and performance without wrecking anything..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Style Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 My understanding (please correct if I'm wrong) is that all they do is fudge and mask signals going to the stock ECU in order to manipulate it into doing what you want it to do. Really not something I like the sound of having on my car. That's why they tend to be pretty limited with functionality, they'll only stretch to functions of the stock ECU (more/less timing, fuel fudging etc. all done by fooling the ECU) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-Ricky Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 Yes they do change the signal that the std ECU sees, some manage it better than others, its basically achieved by intercepting the voltage or resistance that sensor's, like MAF or MAP and temp put out, and make changes before it gets to the ECU, BUT not all, some are modified after the ECU, IE timing and injector signals are adjusted after the ECU, I have used the likes of Emanage Blue and ultimate on several cars with no problems, and decent gains, but like anything its all about setup and mapping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herbiemercman Posted March 30, 2016 Author Share Posted March 30, 2016 (edited) Hi Tricky & Chris, Thanks for info nice when you know your stuff like that, it is also what you said about the reliability of the Emange software which is reassuring to me, and probably many other members who have sparce budgets for tuning. My NA/T man told me the mapper and the patience and experience they have is paramount. I assume the aftermarket ECU's are quite expensive? Chris will know. Again i think it is "horses for cources" in that if your car is a weekend toy and your not relying on it to take your family on holiday or going to work each day, then if the software fails on your toy it's acceptable, if it just cuts out or some thing, if the failure of an Emange can cuause engine damage, similar to a timing belt failure,where the broken belt allows the pistons to come into contact with the valves, then that would be a concern ! ! but i cannot see how any electronic signaling to ignition or fueling, could cause any damage. Have any members heard of such failures ? ? not sure what Chris means about wrecking anything ? Herbie. Edited March 30, 2016 by herbiemercman added extra text. (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 Not sure how much an entry level ecu capable of doing what you need would be, probably a DTA ecu, or a Link. Once you get into Motec and Syvecs you can blow £2500 on the ecu and sensors quite easily, more if you go for the latest and greatest. Having said that few people use anything like the full capability of a given aftermarket ecu, lots of stuff remains untapped. So long as the Emanage is correctly mapped and not causing any issues detrimental to the engine's long term health you should be OK. But I would wager a more capable, none signal fudging ECU could bring consumption down and overall performance up, as well as adding many safety features that may be useful if something goes wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 I have no personal experience with signal fudgers / piggyback units as I like to keep things simple with less to go wrong, say for example the fuse to signal fudger goes, you have installed a single turbo and larger injectors, what happens to your engine if all of a sudden your on 1.5bar boost and all the timing and fueling correction you have applied stops, the stock ECU has good DET control but not that good. If you have the funds for a turbo kit with all the other bits that are needed then a replacement ECU should be on that list, I had my AEM PnP unit installed long before my turbo kit, I was running it on stock twins and just decat and exhaust, skimping in this area is like purchasing 150mph car and then sticking budget tires and ebay brake kits on it I am not saying everyone should have the latest and greatest ECU but even the cheaper / lower end units are better than the best piggyback available, on a tight budget I would be looking for a second hand unit, something like a Apexi PowerFC, early AEM v1 unit (later units had HW issues) or any of the other units now available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 Yep, PowerFC is a great ECU and if you can find one it will run a manual none VVTi straight out of the box, fully plug and play. There are some good PowerFc mappers in the UK too. They won't run an auto of any year though, nor a VVTi manual, as far as I recall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 Yep, PowerFC is a great ECU and if you can find one it will run a manual none VVTi straight out of the box, fully plug and play. There are some good PowerFc mappers in the UK too. They won't run an auto of any year though, nor a VVTi manual, as far as I recall. Agreed, if you can find one with a commander unit then even better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-Ricky Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 (edited) Hi Tricky & Chris, Thanks for info nice when you know your stuff like that, it is also what you said about the reliability of the Emange software which is reassuring to me, and probably many other members who have sparce budgets for tuning. My NA/T man told me the mapper and the patience and experience they have is paramount. I assume the aftermarket ECU's are quite expensive? Chris will know. Again i think it is "horses for cources" in that if your car is a weekend toy and your not relying on it to take your family on holiday or going to work each day, then if the software fails on your toy it's acceptable, if it just cuts out or some thing, if the failure of an Emange can cuause engine damage, similar to a timing belt failure,where the broken belt allows the pistons to come into contact with the valves, then that would be a concern ! ! but i cannot see how any electronic signaling to ignition or fueling, could cause any damage. Have any members heard of such failures ? ? not sure what Chris means about wrecking anything ? Herbie. I am afraid depending on what exactly failed, any ECU whether its a piggyback std or stand alone, has the potential to cause catastrophic engine damage, if it was to say let one cylinder run lean during high load/boost. Edit: However the same thing could result from a partially blocked injector or faulty fuel pump or FPR, there are just too many things that could go wrong with an engine or its control that could cause failure, but its really not worth the what if, we would all be riding push bikes. Edited March 30, 2016 by Tricky-Ricky (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bignum Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 Or the main eprom falls off the board, Kaboom lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herbiemercman Posted March 31, 2016 Author Share Posted March 31, 2016 (edited) Hi Chris, It's like most things "you get what you pay for" and for many what you can afford, i have fantastic performance and stock smooth if just cruising, getting same MPG as pre- NA/T, which was 20 MPG. Hi Tricky, Sort of reassuring what you explained, i imagine ECU failures can affect all cars, this is not just a Supra thing, and so far, all be it early days, no members have reported any actual failures and this is a big world wide club ? Also what is DET ? Hi bignum, What does your post mean ? Edited March 31, 2016 by herbiemercman (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashloys Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 That's actually good to know that you rate the PowerFC, I was considering one in the future to push a little bit more from my car if I buy hybrid turbos or cams for example. I just couldn't justify spending more unless I went single for example. PowerFC's are still extremely popular on Nissan's running SR20DET's and RB25DET's. But it's quite rare you see them on 2JZ engines! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David P Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 PowerFC's are still extremely popular on Nissan's running SR20DET's and RB25DET's. But it's quite rare you see them on 2JZ engines! Each Marque have their own Mapper God(s) which influences the choice of Gizmo's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-Ricky Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 Hi Chris, It's like most things "you get what you pay for" and for many what you can afford, i have fantastic performance and stock smooth if just cruising, getting same MPG as pre- NA/T, which was 20 MPG. Hi Tricky, Sort of reassuring what you explained, i imagine ECU failures can affect all cars, this is not just a Supra thing, and so far, all be it early days, no members have reported any actual failures and this is a big world wide club ? Also what is DET ? Hi bignum, What does your post mean ? Det is detonation, or some call it pre ignition, a condition when the compressed mixture in the cylinder ignites before the plug is fired, due to hot spots etc, not at all good for an engine and can cause quite extensive damage if un checked, that why its an important part of ECU control and careful mapping. Each Marque have their own Mapper God(s) which influences the choice of Gizmo's. Very true, and not always a good thing, just a further note on PFC, while a good and easy to configure ECU, its considered pretty old tech these days, especially in comparison with the likes of Syvecs etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nodalmighty Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 just a further note on PFC, while a good and easy to configure ECU, its considered pretty old tech these days, especially in comparison with the likes of Syvecs etc. I do believe they are 16-bit (possibly even 8bit) processors in the PFC not like the 32bit RISC Dedicated Automotive Floating Point chip sets we have now in the Link and such like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 I dont think anyone is disputing that the PFC is an old unit using old tech, I would still have one over a signal fudger if thats what funds permitted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 The old PFC came with a factory installed map which would run a stock engine in an exemplary manner. This becomes a baseline for tweaking as mods are added and reduces the chances of nasty screw ups just getting an engine to run at all. I have a R33GTR here, about 600 real BHP that's on a PFC. For sure, one could perhaps refine things more with a more modern ECU, but one might also wear out a couple of engines achieving anything like perfection. the best maps you will ever see are those in a stock ecu. No modifier could possibly afford the time and money spent on getting a factory map sorted. A good map in a PFC will beat an average map in a Motec or Syvecs And a PFC has far less stuff to fiddle about with, which may well be a blessing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nodalmighty Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 I dont think anyone is disputing that the PFC is an old unit using old tech, I would still have one over a signal fudger if thats what funds permitted. True, but a brand new Apexi PFC for a Supra is nearly as dear as a Link Storm Black but without the portability or the extra features. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 Can you still buy a new Supra PFC? I thought they were long discontinued? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-Ricky Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 If you think about it the PFC and the std 2JZ ECU will be sporting pretty much the same tech so that's not a worry, as most std ECUs don't seem to fail easily. However if your intending to run serious power I would be far happier with a more modern ECU, I suspect even an EMU will be running better electronics/spec than a std ECU or PFC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herbiemercman Posted April 1, 2016 Author Share Posted April 1, 2016 At the risk of being ridiculed what is a PFC and a EMU how do they work, were they manufactured for certain cars ? I also think as well as "Moderators" the club should appoint some "Professorships", starting with Sir Chris Wilson and Tricky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 PFC - Apexi Power FC EMU - GReddy e-Manage Ultimate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 PFC - Apexi Power FC EMU - GReddy e-Manage Ultimate The PFC is a plug and play full replacement ECU for specific vehicles, think Syvecs, AEM, Link, ProEFI, GEMS, Motec etc The EMU is a piggyback unit that tricks the stock ECU by altering input signals, this allows changes to fueling and timing on none stock engine setups, can be used on any car if you have the wiring diagram. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 I do believe they are 16-bit (possibly even 8bit) processors in the PFC not like the 32bit RISC Dedicated Automotive Floating Point chip sets we have now in the Link and such like. The speed and bus width of the CPU is meaningless in such an embedded application as engine management. Even at 10,000rpm that's only 166 revolutions per second, or 166hz. A Commodore 64 ran at 1,000,000Hz so even that could run your engine. The only reason the newer engine management products have bigger and better CPUs is because they are now the cheapest and best-supported. Modern traction control/stability control/driving aids etc etc do demand decent CPU horsepower due to it needing high speed and complex calculations (and image processing etc) but engines still only need a few sensors and basic "Spark! Fuel!" commands to run IO channels and latency is what really counts in real-time applications. Regarding signal fudgers vs full ECUs, well, as Chris says as long as the right bits get the right signals at the right time to run the engine properly, what does it matter? I think if you're using the stock ECU then you've still got the OEM map quality for cold start, idling, idle-ups for lights and rear screen demisters, blah blah, and you're just telling it how to behave with a bunch of trim maps If someone doesn't know how to use a piggyback properly you're in the same boat as someone not knowing how to use a standalone properly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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