Big Supes Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 It's not personal, we are giving our opinions as to how we vote in the forthcoming referendum. If it gets personal, then I'm out. Oh, no drama. I wasn't treating it as a personal attack. I was merely curious as to where this narrative was coming from. The 55.3% of those who voted "in the UK" were more than the 44.7% percentage that voted "out" Democracy isn't supposed to work on the basis that if one vote doesn't return the result you want, then simply keep voting until it does. A vote decision is supposed to be lasting enough to satisfy the majority population who took part in the vote in hand. Not wanting to 'pick' on those who want Scottish independence, but the idea of wanting to be an independent nation, but at the same time to not be, because you want to be assimilated in to the EU, strikes me as a very strange line of thinking. Nail on the head. As for the Scottish independence lot, they're just sick of being in England's shadow. They want independence, but the reality is, they would suffer alone - so here comes this fantasy that they could be part of the EU whilst being 'independent'. Its quite sad, but amusing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus GTE Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 As for the Scottish independence lot, they're just sick of being in England's shadow. They want independence, but the reality is, they would suffer alone - so here comes this fantasy that they could be part of the EU whilst being 'independent'. Its quite sad, but amusing. So by your logic France Germany and Spain aren't independent countries either because they are in the EU? Think that's the amusing bit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Supes Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 France, Germany or Spain are not members of an additional union and have not been harping on about controlling their own country compared to the Scotland vs England issue. If your example was more comparable, and they were (for arguments sake) pro-EU in this scenario, I would also be laughing at them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 So by your logic France Germany and Spain aren't independent countries either because they are in the EU? Think that's the amusing bit France, Germany and Spain aren't independent. EU law has primacy over national law, so by definition they aren't independent. EU law vs national law Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemanhead Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 Leaving the EU is about a lot more than complaining about the numbers of Romanian car washers, Polish plumbers or Lithuanian labourers, it is about potentially losing trade, peace, economic integration and the desire to make Europe a genuine competitor to the US. The obsession with trade and capitalism will only lead to full privatisation though. To be honest, I love Europe the way it is. I think it would be a tragedy to forsake centuries of amazing culture in favour of the disposable consumer society the Americans have. Let China and the US fight for the top spot, neither place will ever be on the same level as us in the ways that really matter. Where is all of this scaremongering about future wars and instability coming from just for leaving the EU coming from exactly ? asthough we will be thrown somehow into WW3, have a word with yourself people. I think j_jza80 has nailed it for me there. The only supporters i see from this are people making money off of the back of the EU; cheap labour or ramming as many families into a house as possible keeping rents high. All the while the rest of us suffer the intolerable loss of identity and endure the failing cultural experiment of EU and non EU economic migrants. I cannot blame them for seeking a better life; but they abuse and rape the very systems put in place to serve it's people - NOT them. I would rather see this country go into absolute ruin, hyperinflate and everyone leave than have it go any further. You could rub yourself down with baths of money then Westcoaster, it won't be worth anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 A couple of 'interesting' statistics have been tweeted by the BBC political presenter over the last couple of days. Firstly: "Over the past five years 2.25m EU nationals registered for NI number. But official figures show only 1m EU migrants over same period" There was also a refusal to publish official statistics regarding this from a freedom of information request, citing that it would be "unhelpful" for the current EU negotiations. And secondly: "Lots of reports in early 2014 that predicted Romanian/Bulgarian influx had not materialised. In fact, almost 100,000 have come in 2 years" I seem to remember being told the figure would be something like 10,000 per year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westcoaster Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 Well I feel I've done my bit to explain my reasoning for why I'll be voting yes in the EU referendum, and I note that the poll has moved very marginally in favour of the Yes camp, having started at 80/20, it's now 77/23! With that sort of momentum, perhaps it'll be 50/50 by 23/6/16? I'm away now to campaign for the SNP in the forthcoming Scottish Parliamentary elections on 5/5/2016, where the SNP are heading for 55% of the votes and an historic third term. Any further thoughts on Europe can wait till after that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 You shouldn't mention the word 'momentum' when talking about British politics, people will assume you're talking about Corbyn's Brown Shirts Best of luck. Not that you'll need it, all the competition have done a fine job of destroying themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted February 27, 2016 Share Posted February 27, 2016 i'll leave the immigration conversation aside as that is very well covered in the media & I believe that is a small token of what is at stake here. EU has been around for the past 17 years, initially with member states that were "reasonably" comparable to eachother (lifestyle, democracy, laws, culture?) - and in that time it has hardly been a success, i'd call it a massive failure. Now that it has been extended to accommodate new member states I for one don't see how it can ever work. I remain unconvinced that we need to be part of the EU in order to trade with the EU, not to mention that we as a nation should be & are looking to extend our trade relations beyond the EU - with special relations with China as an example. Finally and more importantly - this is about our sovereignty & democracy, I don't see any reason to hand over our power to a bunch of unknown unelected unaccountable bureaucrats in Europe - regardless of the financial outlook if we were to pull out. With that in mind and having read the views on this thread - I remain in the OUT camp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted February 27, 2016 Share Posted February 27, 2016 I would argue that we are much better off being OUT of the EU if we stand a chance on clamping down on terrorism - both homegrown & foreign. Look at the disaster in the making Lets also not forget that the Belgian terrorists that attacked France were known to the Germans - this demonstrates a massive failure in info sharing between the "top" EU nations resulting in an attack - with the new larger EU - how can we trust these incompetent idiots in protecting our citizens..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Massey Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 What are people's thoughts on Turkey given free movement into EU countries? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rajinder Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 Some views as far as Turkey is concerned from other forums. That Turkey wants to be in the EU should be enough for people to want out. Only 3% of Turkey is in Europe the other 97% is in Asia .Turkey would become the largest eu country ? They would have 97meps the uk has 73 meps. They would be entitled to one 3rd of the eu budget which would be 11 billion £.Which is more than the UK payes in. their farmers would be entitled to a further 8 billion £ in eu grants. UK farmers grants are being cut by Europe and the money they are loosing is going to easten European countries . Turkeys population is 75 million but will rise to 84 million by 2023. With an average monthly wage of just over £400 in Turkey how many will migrate to the EU? They should not be part of the eu or nato. The EU is a joke better off out use your vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hitbox Junkie Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 What are people's thoughts on Turkey given free movement into EU countries? Seems like they don't have a choice there already over run but seems it's an easy way out but then again I'd say that because it means migrants are getting closer to the UK. On my opinion isn't good. Seems Europe isn't coping with the influx as they seem to want to go to country's that there going to benefit from the state. (Don't blame they for wanting a easy life) but isn't gooD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Supes Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 Freedom of movement from Turkey is bad, bad, BAD. The bunch of jihadi sympathisers are a serious security threat to our country. This will help the 'OUT' vote, for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Massey Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 This will help the 'OUT' vote, for sure. You would think, yet it's not being reported properly. And all the media seems to be overly biased. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendo11 Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 It would be a disaster, there's far too much evidence citing links between Turkey and ISIS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 It would be a disaster, there's far too much evidence citing links between Turkey and ISIS. Several Links between ISIS & allies like Saudi & US - funded, trained, propped up & supported. ISIS are good for business provided they are kept away from our shores - problem is the chickens are coming back home to roost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendo11 Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 Several Links between ISIS & allies like Saudi & US - funded, trained, propped up & supported. ISIS are good for business provided they are kept away from our shores - problem is the chickens are coming back home to roost. I've not seen definitive links between ISIS and the US? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonball Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 The two referendums are linked, the exit of the UK from the EU will prompt another Independence referendum in Scotland, which is a consequence that those who think that the 'UK' will be stronger out of Europe, have not realised or considered. Leaving the EU is about a lot more than complaining about the numbers of Romanian car washers, Polish plumbers or Lithuanian labourers, it is about potentially losing trade, peace, economic integration and the desire to make Europe a genuine competitor to the US. I find it very depressing that there is a dearth of hard facts about the consequences and potential benefits of leaving and for staying in the EU. The right wing press have their agenda and will create another climate of fear to influence the decision of the ill-educated and ignorant, just as they did in the Scottish independence referendum. There are a few on here who have an inflated opinion of just how important the UK is in the modern world, get over yourselves! Make no mistake, we need Europe more than they need us. The UK has been a reluctant and recalcitrant member of the EU since Thatcher's time, frankly, I'm sure many EU governments would happily like to see the back of us. To mis-quote Lyndon B Johnston, it's better to be on the inside pissing out of the tent than on the outside trying to piss in. The EU is far from perfect, but it's better to work to make it work more effectively, than simply flounce out and not have a fall back position. Despite the fact you are a blue faced heathen :-) I agree with you!! This poll has me really depressed I too instinctively want to tell Johnny foreigner (including the Scots) to go forth and multiply However there are real and compelling reasons to stay Demographics of the UK in the future The Contribution from migrants to tax payments The REAL cost of immigration on benefits The legal benefits of EU control over these crazy conservatives Free trade agreements Cultural integration Farming subsidies - reducing costs (you think the conservatives will give the farmers the same - not on your nelly) Scotland staying (who else ill we have to invade?) Seriously guys - start thinking with your head over your heart! :-( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cered Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 I've not seen definitive links between ISIS and the US? Media sees ISIS with typical US military equipment such as Humvees or M4/M16 pattern rifles and headlines will scream US HAS SUPPLIED HARDWARE TO ISIS!!!!!111!!!!!1ELEVEN!. The reality is they've seized ancient equipment left behind to local forces after we've left. I'm surprised most of their stolen equipment from Afghan/Iraqi forces still works as it's probably from the mid '00s. Most likely is ISIs have bought the technology themselves as they are immensely rich and powerful currently. a few million $$ to some Saudi or US illegal supplier and they'll have what they want. Criminals don't care for politics - ISIS $$ is as good as Allied $$. If the US ever supplied ISIS we'll never know and if we were told we wouldn't know the truth or not. E.g. The US (From how it sounds) supplied Osama when he was seen as an ally way back when (Against Saddam I think, not sure at all so forgive me if I'm way off) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 The US (From how it sounds) supplied Osama when he was seen as an ally way back when (Against Saddam I think, not sure at all so forgive me if I'm way off) Off Topic here so will keep it short. Don't think he had a role to play against the non-religious baathist Saddam - more to do with the Russians through the Afghanis. They did however prop Saddam up with loads of weapons, training, funds, etc to fight against the Iranians. Weapons / War - outsourcing of Military service is a profitable business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cered Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 Off Topic here so will keep it short. Don't think he had a role to play against the non-religious baathist Saddam - more to do with the Russians through the Afghanis. They did however prop Saddam up with loads of weapons, training, funds, etc to fight against the Iranians. Weapons / War - outsourcing of Military service is a profitable business. Aha, I see. Thanks for letting me know. Maybe the US/UK funded ISIS when they were just dudes fighting against the Taliban. Politics is choosing between 100shades of grey and only 2 options will have a perfect outcome so I don't pay much attention to the media scaremongering tbh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendo11 Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 Off Topic here so will keep it short. Don't think he had a role to play against the non-religious baathist Saddam - more to do with the Russians through the Afghanis. They did however prop Saddam up with loads of weapons, training, funds, etc to fight against the Iranians. Weapons / War - outsourcing of Military service is a profitable business. That's well documented. To say the US is supplying ISIS is wide of the mark though. Off topic as you say though. Back on topic, although I'll be voting out this is an interesting thought: http://www.thecanary.co/2016/02/26/surprise-eu-vote-might-make-people-think-twice-leaving/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downimpact Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 Out for one simple reason, we should be in control of making our own laws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tintinmt Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 I don't want out to see an end to immigration. I do want to see an end to a system that means that we get a whole bunch of people except the ones we want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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