Al Massey Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 Heart says your right, but I can see if we guaranteed it before negotiations it maybe one used against us during negotiations the other way round. I can understand that, but surely guaranteeing EU citizens who are already here will show we have compassion and that we aren't out to hurt the EU but work with them. It would be the first step to a decent negotiation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveC Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 I can understand that, but surely guaranteeing EU citizens who are already here will show we have compassion and that we aren't out to hurt the EU but work with them. It would be the first step to a decent negotiation. /QUOTE] In an ideal World that would certainly be the way to go about it, but we're not in an ideal World, unfortunately, far from it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 I'm really split on this. I would probably be erring towards Al's position, except I have a feeling that if we give this agreement now, we will enact article 50, and the EU will refuse to discuss UK citizens rights until we agree to pay whatever settlement bill they are going to dream up. I hope I'm wrong, but the influential people in the Commission and parliament are federalists. Also, why do the Liberal Democrats have over 100 lords, when they only have 7 MP's? surely that is both illiberal and undemocratic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilkinson Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 I'm really split on this. I would probably be erring towards Al's position, except I have a feeling that if we give this agreement now, we will enact article 50, and the EU will refuse to discuss UK citizens rights until we agree to pay whatever settlement bill they are going to dream up. I hope I'm wrong, but the influential people in the Commission and parliament are federalists. Also, why do the Liberal Democrats have over 100 lords, when they only have 7 MP's? surely that is both illiberal and undemocratic? I don't think we should agree any provisions until official negotiations begin with Europe. There's no moral high ground here. We are talking about the future of our country. Our first priority is to our citizens. I agree that any decision undertaken through a misguided sense of honour and fairness will only serve as a handicap to the future negotiations. EU citizens in the UK are no more unsettled than UK citizens abroad and I know who I would rather look after first. I'm also puzzled by how many Lib Dem peers there are? Are they relic hereditary peers? In either case their numbers need a good purge, indeed I think the House of Lords is a relic and undemocratic. It should be replaced by an publicaly elected house with an oversight of Parliamentary processes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonR24 Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 You realise the EU rejected ensuring safe stay for British citizens abroad? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilkinson Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 You realise the EU rejected doing the exact same thing for British citizens abroad? Was that only because of the "we won't agree to anything until formal negotiations begin" rhetoric? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie_b Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 UK government should have protected EU citizens rights straight away. It's not a bargaining chip, and shouldn't have to wait till negotiations start to bring it up. Be the bigger person and sort it already I completely agree Al. For a *relatively* simple matter like this (reciprocal rights of UK citizens in the EU to stay where they are, and for EU citizens in the UK to stay where they are), but for something so crucial to so many families and businesses, it's mad not to have a gentleman's agreement already in place between the UK govt and the EU. I don't think allowing EU nationals already in the UK to stay indefinitely, will make a material difference to problems like housing, NHS, schools etc. It will help to give families stability (if you're Polish and you're about to choose a school for your child, what do you do? Gamble on being allowed to stay in the UK? Jack in your job and home and move back to the EU?) , and ensure business continuity (if you're a restaurant and you employ a lot of EU nationals, how worried would you be?) You realise the EU rejected ensuring safe stay for British citizens abroad? Was that only because of the "we won't agree to anything until formal negotiations begin" rhetoric? Hopefully mwilkinson is right here - I suspect I would have heard about it if the EU ruled it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shane Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 Interesting this should come back life just now. coincides with Junker/Eu commission's white paper on the future as they see it: http://www.romania-insider.com/ec-president-junker-presents-five-scenarios-european-unions-future/?utm_source=Romania+Insider+Daily+distribution+list&utm_campaign=adf8a58d65-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2017_03_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_ece3d6d4cf-adf8a58d65-405709589&ct=t(RI_Newsletter_March_2_20173_1_2017) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 You realise the EU rejected ensuring safe stay for British citizens abroad? Was that only because of the "we won't agree to anything until formal negotiations begin" rhetoric? Hopefully mwilkinson is right here - I suspect I would have heard about it if the EU ruled it out. It was Germany and France that blocked / ruled it out along with any other discussions until article 50 is triggered, other member states were happy to get this nailed down ASAP. http://www.politico.eu/article/uk-theresa-may-pre-brexit-expats-plan-nixed-by-german-chancellor-angela-merkel-negotiations-european-union-residence/ http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-theresa-may-angela-merkel-eu-migrants-deal-a7445261.html http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/737705/angela-merkel-rejects-theresa-may-call-protect-eu-migrants-brexit http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/29/donald-tusk-accuses-british-voters-backed-brexit-creating-anxiety/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 House of Lords defeated the government again this evening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilkinson Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Seems the House of Lords interference has sparked this: https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/183134 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SupraAyf Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 Seems the House of Lords interference has sparked this: https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/183134 Good link M, that's me signed up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 Seems the House of Lords interference has sparked this: https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/183134 Good link M, that's me signed up. There was already one running that has over 100k votes https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/170686 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 House of Lords defeated the government again this evening. shambles.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dnk Posted March 8, 2017 Author Share Posted March 8, 2017 Signed both Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilkinson Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 I've just signed the other one too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonR24 Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 Signed, the governments response is weak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 Someone told me in the pub (where else do you get sound facts these days...?), that Heseltine has been booted out. I struggled another drink down in celebration Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formatzero Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 Apparently there are around 800 members of the Lords,no idea how many actually attend but at £300 a day attendance I hope it's not all of them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 Very few seem to attend regularly, and the number of them who appear to be asleep is shocking. On the other hand, what's the point in it if it's just going to become another layer of party politics? (Which it pretty much is anyway) Better to be rid of all party affiliations, remove their power over the government, and let it become a consultative house with peers appointed on their life experience, expertise and qualifications. Probably have a single representative of each major religion too, but get rid of all hereditary peerage, which are nothing more than a relic of serfdom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Supes Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 The less government, the better, IMO. Get rid of the old cronies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 Some dates being passed around for Article 50 triggering, Alex Salmond has said it will likely be next Weds although others have said it might actually be on Tues instead. - - - Updated - - - Apparently there are around 800 members of the Lords,no idea how many actually attend but at £300 a day attendance I hope it's not all of them Crazy that there isn't a time limit on term Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dnk Posted March 10, 2017 Author Share Posted March 10, 2017 Apparently there are around 800 members of the Lords,no idea how many actually attend but at £300 a day attendance I hope it's not all of them I bet that's not abused at all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 I read a few weeks ago a member of staff at the lords describing one unnamed member would regularly get a taxi to drop him/her off down the road, which would wait on the meter while the Lord went and signed in, and then left immediately. Another example of the complete rot that has set in is this: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/08/george-osborne-to-be-paid-650000-for-working-one-day-a-week-blackrock-salary One wonders how he can work a day a week for such a firm, when he is already employed full time as an MP? doesn't he have enough to do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilkinson Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 I read a few weeks ago a member of staff at the lords describing one unnamed member would regularly get a taxi to drop him/her off down the road, which would wait on the meter while the Lord went and signed in, and then left immediately. Another example of the complete rot that has set in is this: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/08/george-osborne-to-be-paid-650000-for-working-one-day-a-week-blackrock-salary One wonders how he can work a day a week for such a firm, when he is already employed full time as an MP? doesn't he have enough to do? This shouldn't be allowed. They shouldn't be allowed second jobs. He should be made to choose which one he wants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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