imi Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 It could, but the difference is if we leave our government would be fully accountable and as such cant pass the buck. The public would have the power to change government come election time. At the moment it feels like we're voting for a middleman to act as the EU's UK mouthpiece. /QUOTE] - - - Updated - - - Cameron and his keenness for Serbia and Turkey to join the EU, as addressed to the Commons: im a tory supporter and find his attitude shambolic - he has lost my support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 Yep, a lot of quick flash polls agree with you too. It's madness that the PM refuses to debate face to face. DC came across as repetitive, unprepared and weak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 I'm still undecided, as is my wife. It worries me that if two people, who are fairly intelligent, who have listened to all sides of the argument, spent hours (dozens) reading into the economic/social impacts and still don't see a clear path - what are the general populace going to base their decision on? I do hope it's not the rubbish that's posted via social media (from both sides). I honestly think that the people who should be making this decision should not be the voting public of the UK. That said, I don't have a better suggestion... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendo11 Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 I'm still undecided, as is my wife. It worries me that if two people, who are fairly intelligent, who have listened to all sides of the argument, spent hours (dozens) reading into the economic/social impacts and still don't see a clear path - what are the general populace going to base their decision on? I do hope it's not the rubbish that's posted via social media (from both sides). I honestly think that the people who should be making this decision should not be the voting public of the UK. That said, I don't have a better suggestion... It's possibly going to be an emotional vote as opposed to an educated decision: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/05/british-voters-succumbing-to-impulse-irritation-and-anger---and/ The fact that Boris, Gove, Farage, Hopkins, Trump, Putin all support leaving should be a cause for concern for any right minded person, but there you go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonR24 Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 It's possibly going to be an emotional vote as opposed to an educated decision: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/05/british-voters-succumbing-to-impulse-irritation-and-anger---and/ The fact that Boris, Gove, Farage, Hopkins, Trump, Putin all support leaving should be a cause for concern for any right minded person, but there you go. /QUOTE] The main reason and one that people should be more concerned about is centralisation of power. Very very dangerous! History has proven that. Also you haven Cameron, Corbyn, Osbourne, Hunt, Goldman Sachs, RUPERT MURDOCH for crying out loud. They are all supporters of remain. Quite frankly I'm more scared of these people/corporations... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 The main reason and one that people should be more concerned about is centralisation of power. Very very dangerous! History has proven that. Also you haven Cameron, Corbyn, Osbourne, Hunt, Goldman Sachs, RUPERT MURDOCH for crying out loud. They are all supporters of remain. Quite frankly I'm more scared of these people/corporations... /QUOTE] Don't forget Tony Blair, Big Pharma, the Vatican. Oh, and the Bilderberg group http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/07/bilderberg-conference-dresden-charlie-skelton-bilderblog The EU isn't about cooperation, it is about subjugation, to unelected political elites, German industry, and seemingly the global 1%. We cooperate with many countries, some more closely than our European neighbours, and we don't have to pay them tens of millions of pounds per week for the pleasure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonR24 Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 Don't forget Tony Blair, Big Pharma, the Vatican. Oh, and the Bilderberg group http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/07/bilderberg-conference-dresden-charlie-skelton-bilderblog Exactly. Don't know how I missed Blair! all huge reasons not to vote remain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Massey Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 The argument of who supports leave cracks me up. Blair, illegal war, still waiting for the report. He's not jailed for his actions and is on a fortune with his new job. Gordon Brown who sold all our gold stupidly cheap, amongst many other problems. Osborne, who tried to cut disabled benefits, introduced brutal austerity cuts amongst a few Then we can look at the other corporations or people that are bad. It doesn't matter who supports in or out, no one should ever base their vote on a specific person supporting the cause, but if you do, the remain are far worse then the leave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie_b Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 I'm still undecided, as is my wife. It worries me that if two people, who are fairly intelligent, who have listened to all sides of the argument, spent hours (dozens) reading into the economic/social impacts and still don't see a clear path - what are the general populace going to base their decision on? I do hope it's not the rubbish that's posted via social media (from both sides). I honestly think that the people who should be making this decision should not be the voting public of the UK. That said, I don't have a better suggestion... These are valid concerns. I don't fully trust the public to make sensible choices in referendums, fearing that it would turn into a charisma contest for the proponents of each side. I saw an article this morning form the usually excellent Money Saving Expert website, and this one didn't disappoint either. I haven't digested it fully and I think it contains points that we've already batted around a lot in this thread, but here you go: http://blog.moneysavingexpert.com/2016/06/05/how-to-vote-in-the-eu-referendum/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 I'm still undecided, as is my wife. It worries me that if two people, who are fairly intelligent, who have listened to all sides of the argument, spent hours (dozens) reading into the economic/social impacts and still don't see a clear path - what are the general populace going to base their decision on? I do hope it's not the rubbish that's posted via social media (from both sides). I honestly think that the people who should be making this decision should not be the voting public of the UK. That said, I don't have a better suggestion... If the EU was a success then for me the decision would be ever so slightly arduous, as it has been such a failure for the past 40 years & I see particular challenging times ahead with the ever expanding EU as I highlighted earlie.....for me it's a no brainer - time to cut our losses & be a global player - I say no to the loser club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 Further to my point about postal votes earlier, this is about the recent Austrian Presidential election... The FPO is claiming numerous irregularities in the election on 22 May, particularly for the absentee vote count, Christian Neuwirth, a spokesman for the constitutional court, said. The FPO candidate, Norbert Hofer, lost to Alexander Van der Bellen, a retired economics professor backed by the Green party, by just 31,000 votes out of more than 4.6m ballots cast, and only after more than 700,000 postal ballots – about 10% of available votes – were taken into account. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/08/austrias-far-right-freedom-party-challenges-presidential-election-reults Now, I'm not claiming that election was rigged, and frankly I'm glad of the final result, but it just highlights the potential fiddling that can be achieved by postal votes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonR24 Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 Further to my point about postal votes earlier, this is about the recent Austrian Presidential election... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/08/austrias-far-right-freedom-party-challenges-presidential-election-reults Now, I'm not claiming that election was rigged, and frankly I'm glad of the final result, but it just highlights the potential fiddling that can be achieved by postal votes. To be honest I'm not pleased at the result if democracy was subverted.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 I always think of Tower Hamlets when postal vote rigging is mooted, are there earlier cases of vote rigging in UK elections than that? Just curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 I don't know about that, but I know that there have been reports in recent elections of community 'bloc' voting, which is just as bad as postal voting. IMO the only way to vote should be in person, in a poll booth. The other methods just introduce too many opportunities for rigging. This will become even worse when online voting is permitted, which I have no doubt it will eventually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie_b Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 Migration is a hot topic in this debate, so this is relevent: http://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/what-would-a-norway-style-relationship-with-the-eu-entail/ If we leave the EU, a Norway- or Swiss- style agreement with the EU would still mean free movement of people in and out of the UK. The UK could negotiate a new type of agreement of course (and maybe the net flow of trade will help us to bargain for that), but the precedents don't indicate that this is likely. Despite, some greater flexibility over agriculture, fisheries and external trade, if the UK were to opt for a Norwegian-style relationship it would still be bound by great swathes of the EU regulation that rankles with businesses and the general public, but – and this is the crucial point – without any vote on it. We noted in our Brexit study that if the UK were to ‘become like Norway’ by joining EEA, 93 out of the 100 costliest EU-derived regulations would remain in place Switzerland – outside the EEA and with its own specific EU relationship – also has to accept EU free movement and experiences higher levels of inward migration than the UK. So, neither Norway nor Switzerland’s relationships with the EU are a panacea when it comes to limiting EU migration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Massey Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 Migration is a hot topic in this debate, so this is relevent: http://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/what-would-a-norway-style-relationship-with-the-eu-entail/ If we leave the EU, a Norway- or Swiss- style agreement with the EU would still mean free movement of people in and out of the UK. The UK could negotiate a new type of agreement of course (and maybe the net flow of trade will help us to bargain for that), but the precedents don't indicate that this is likely. Cameron claims he has made reforms to migration whilst in the EU. So if we leave, we can take a Norwegian style(as that keeps getting branded about) but doesn't mean we have to have free movement. We will be in a position to negotiate. Bearing in mind other nations that trade with the EU but aren't member states set up deals a long time ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 Migration is a hot topic in this debate, so this is relevent: http://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/what-would-a-norway-style-relationship-with-the-eu-entail/ If we leave the EU, a Norway- or Swiss- style agreement with the EU would still mean free movement of people in and out of the UK. The UK could negotiate a new type of agreement of course (and maybe the net flow of trade will help us to bargain for that), but the precedents don't indicate that this is likely. The EU will bend over backwards to trade with the UK - we aren't a Romania.....yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 I don't know about that, but I know that there have been reports in recent elections of community 'bloc' voting, which is just as bad as postal voting. IMO the only way to vote should be in person, in a poll booth. The other methods just introduce too many opportunities for rigging. This will become even worse when online voting is permitted, which I have no doubt it will eventually. I agree entirely, too much leeway for abuse IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 The most accurate pollster of last year's general election, who predicted a small Tory majority in the face of other polls, predictions, and bookies who predicted a Labour majority, has predicted that Leave will win the referendum http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/08/tories-favorite-pollster-predicts-britain-will-vote-for-brexit/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 I always think of Tower Hamlets when postal vote rigging is mooted, are there earlier cases of vote rigging in UK elections than that? Just curious. There's a long 'tradition' of it here, the 'vote early and often' slogan gets an airing every time we have an election Both sides are apparently guilty of it but it's probably more widespread with republican & nationalist parties - the Westminster government alleged in 1983 that 20% of Sinn Fein's votes were questionable, at the same election over a thousand people turned up at various polling stations to find that their vote had already been cast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 There's a long 'tradition' of it here, the 'vote early and often' slogan gets an airing every time we have an election Both sides are apparently guilty of it but it's probably more widespread with republican & nationalist parties - the Westminster government alleged in 1983 that 20% of Sinn Fein's votes were questionable, at the same election over a thousand people turned up at various polling stations to find that their vote had already been cast. Makes me think of this scene from the film Gangs of New York Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 Hmm - im not thinking perhaps the postal vote wasn't a good idea.....as a working family going to vote in person on a thursday is not practical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonR24 Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 Hmm - im not thinking perhaps the postal vote wasn't a good idea.....as a working family going to vote in person on a thursday is not practical. Voting stations are open all hours though? Surely this is acceptable over postal votes which can easily be rigged Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 Yes they open early and close quite late. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shane Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 Voting stations are open all hours though? Surely this is acceptable over postal votes which can easily be rigged /QUOTE] Yes they open early and close quite late. I think ours is 7am to 10pm, would think they are all the same? But I too am having second thoughts about postal voting which is what I was planning as I am on a train by this time normally. I applied for postal voting in case I am working away on the day. It is a concern. On another note I overheard a conversation today at work that made me smile on one hand but dismay on the other. A reasonable sensible more mature lady in the office was telling her colleague that she wanted to leave the Eu but wasn't originally intending to vote "we never bother normally". She then she discovered her grandchildren are voting to remain so her and her husband are now making the effort to vote to cancel out the votes from the grandkids....wtf? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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