Europe

[Al Massey]

Definite and unequivocal vote to stay in. The EU is the major (and very willing) recipient of what is grown, fished, brewed and distilled in my part of the world.

 

As an advocate of Scottish independence, it will be intriguing to see the Tories inadvertently break up the United Kingdom when they try to drag Scotland out of the EU, or, more amusingly, if the Scottish vote keeps the UK in!

 

It'll be a sad day when England is an isolated and overcrowded basket case vying to become the 51st US state, what are you going to do when 2.25 million English emigrants return from their homes in the EU?

 

Trade agreements take years, if not decades to set up fairly, so good luck with that.

 

So you think if the Uk leaves the EU that every European will stop drinking whisky from Scotland??

[Westcoaster]

So you think if the Uk leaves the EU that every European will stop drinking whisky from Scotland??

 

Nope, but their direct intervention has helped preserve many food and drink products from copycats and counterfeiters through PGIs and PDOs.

[ianhid]

The European court is not the EU court.

Two entirely different entities.

 

And prisoners should have no rights.

They're in prison for a reason

 

I'm well aware of the differences Al, the cases I've listed are from the European Court of Human Rights. The court that the Tory party were trying to withdraw from if they didn't get the right to a veto earlier in 2015 was the ECHR. It's not clear if it is possible to leave the ECHR and stay in the EU. That would come down to legal wrangling and would likely take a long time to resolve. The current referendum is around whether we stay in Europe at all (and thus whether we are subject to the ECJ). One of the side effects of leaving the EU is that withdrawing from the ECHR becomes much easier, which is why I am in favour of staying in the EU.

 

While I agree that most people are in jail for a reason, I fail to see how stripping them of their human right to free election is in anyones interest. Once you start saying it's ok to strip human rights, you might as well not have the concept at all.

[Big Supes]

In, without EU funding the majority of Wales is f*****. EU money rebuilt half of Cardiff and mos tof South Wales' infrastructure.

 

If we do stay in I want less input of EU laws put onto us though because it's not "one size fits all" for every country. It's ridiculous.

 

EDIT: Ironically I support independence for Scotland and Wales from England however

 

 

You sound like you want your cake and to eat as well.

[Al Massey]

While I agree that most people are in jail for a reason, I fail to see how stripping them of their human right to free election is in anyones interest. Once you start saying it's ok to strip human rights, you might as well not have the concept at all.

 

I don't get this at all to be honest.

 

Criminals, who have clearly abused other human rights, are to be punished.

And I don't see how voting is a human right.

 

And I really don't see the need for prisoners of any criminal act should be allowed certain liberties and "rights".

I think human rights have gone way too far.

Some of it is ridiculous to be fair.

Some is very just and right.

[Kendo11]

I don't get this at all to be honest.

 

Criminals, who have clearly abused other human rights, are to be punished.

And I don't see how voting is a human right.

 

And I really don't see the need for prisoners of any criminal act should be allowed certain liberties and "rights".

I think human rights have gone way too far.

Some of it is ridiculous to be fair.

Some is very just and right.

Agree.

[cered]

Not sure why the "out" voters are condemning the "in" voters when "In" voters have quietly accepted their opinion...

 

Half interested in just seeing what happens if we do leave... And how long it'll take for us to rejoin the EU. I can't see the tories leading for much longer

[Frank Bullitt]

Possibly because the out voters haven't done it secretly, there are only a few members who have voted to stay in and said why. If people want to stay in then it would be good to hear the reasons why as some of the out voters might have not looked at things from a certain angle.

 

It should be an open debate, not a hit and run

[Frank Bullitt]

prisoners should have no rights.They're in prison for a reason

 

Criminals, who have clearly abused other human rights, are to be punished

 

I really don't see the need for prisoners of any criminal act should be allowed certain liberties and "rights"

 

Al. I have just picked a few lines out of things you have said above, hopefully not taken out of context please say if I have. Can you explain what you mean? What is your definition of a Criminal? Also how you think Prison life is?

 

You seem to have some pretty solid ideas and I wondered why

[Al Massey]

Not sure why the "out" voters are condemning the "in" voters when "In" voters have quietly accepted their opinion...

 

Half interested in just seeing what happens if we do leave... And how long it'll take for us to rejoin the EU. I can't see the tories leading for much longer

 

I actually enjoy discussions like this, and seeing views from both sides, wether condemning or quietly as it generally brings out information people miss.

 

I won't say I know everything, and I certainly don't remember everything or fully understand everything I read so it's good to see others opinions and facts about subjects.

[Al Massey]

Al. I have just picked a few lines out of things you have said above, hopefully not taken out of context please say if I have. Can you explain what you mean? What is your definition of a Criminal? Also how you think Prison life is?

 

You seem to have some pretty solid ideas and I wondered why

 

Not at all mate.

 

A criminal who has been sentenced by a court and judge for crimes.

I have been to some prisons, and had to cover work during a few strikes.

And was trained in prisoner exchange and handling.

 

Granted, prison isn't a hotel stay, but in my eyes they get it a lot easier than they should.

And yes some prisons are worse than others, depending on the crimes.

But some of the crimes being committed, by some people who show no remorse or care for what they have done are then allowed certain liberties because it's their human rights :/

 

Some people get off certain punishments because it would be against their human rights.

 

Like getting X amount of points on your licence, but because they "need" their licence for work and their wife doesn't speak English or doesn't work, it is then deemed acceptable to let them keep their licence with a puny fine because it would be against their human rights to remove the licence.

 

It's mad.

I could even say it's abasing my human rights to make me redundant from the Army as I needed the job and find it hard and strange to transition to civilian life and still struggle to this day.

[Kendo11]

Not sure why the "out" voters are condemning the "in" voters when "In" voters have quietly accepted their opinion...

 

Half interested in just seeing what happens if we do leave... And how long it'll take for us to rejoin the EU. I can't see the tories leading for much longer

If we do end up coming out it will be many many many years before the eu contemplate letting us rejoin.

[Kendo11]

Possibly because the out voters haven't done it secretly, there are only a few members who have voted to stay in and said why. If people want to stay in then it would be good to hear the reasons why as some of the out voters might have not looked at things from a certain angle.

 

It should be an open debate, not a hit and run

Early days though, in voters will be more vocal as it gets nearer the time. The out campaign has just taken the early initiative.

[cered]

I actually enjoy discussions like this, and seeing views from both sides, wether condemning or quietly as it generally brings out information people miss.

 

I won't say I know everything, and I certainly don't remember everything or fully understand everything I read so it's good to see others opinions and facts about subjects.

 

Agreed, learned a lot about reasons against/for rather than what journalists or the "scholars" they interview have to say. Always different with actual people. Like on paper Donald Trump in the US is an absolute joke of a candidate...

 

... But he has a large amount of support and potential voters because everyone will have a different reason to vote for him

[Chris Wilson]

I don't care if it costs me a few grand a year in earnings, or causes me to pay some more for local services, I am sick to the back teeth of seeing this wave of fit young men of dubious or unknown origin sweeping into Europe expecting us to furnish them with a European lifestyle for nothing, and in many cases harbouring dark thoughts of stabbing us in the back or dreaming of changing the very fabric of our culture. At best they are a massive drain on our already overwhelmed resources, and at worst a serious national security threat.

 

I realise leaving the EU is not an overnight affair, but severing our ties with this failed Liberal experiment and doing what we can, given the wets that govern us, to close our borders is worth money and sacrifice to me, and I suspect many more who choose to remain quiet whilst silently enraged. They have their chance to make a change unless the government are planning a fix, which is something I have been wondering about for some time. The stories in today's papers of the civil service department employees being banned from aiding any call for information that may help the "OUT" campaigners on the benches are very concerning. Hopefully Cameron is not so blinkered as to think he can fix this referendum unnoticed?

 

All this is probably irrelevant as I foresee a European if not world war starting soon. In the big picture it would probably be no bad thing, a decimation of population would cure many of our current ills, Draconian as it may sound.

[Kendo11]

 

All this is probably irrelevant as I foresee a European if not world war starting soon. In the big picture it would probably be no bad thing, a decimation of population would cure many of our current ills, Draconian as it may sound.

 

That I completely agree with.

[JasonR24]

To stay in the EU is simply undemocratic. Everyone knows what I think of the supposed democracy we have here but the EU is run by leadership that is unelected yet have the power to demand we follow their rules. That's a lot worse.

 

Norway are a prime example of why you don't need to be in the EU. They are part of the European trade agreement but aren't part of the EU and have voted against joining several times. Their country isn't suffering at all.

 

we simply pay millions a day for very minimal benefits.

 

I will be voting to get out simply because the negatives outweigh the benefits. The EU needs us more than we need them.

 

I'd like someone to prove me wrong other than trade because quite frankly that's not a valid argument anymore. We simply don't benefit from trade by being in the EU anywhere near everyone seems to think.

[stevie_b]

Norway are a prime example of why you don't need to be in the EU. They are part of the European trade agreement but aren't part of the EU and have voted against joining several times. Their country isn't suffering at all.

 

Norway seems to be a very well-run example. It has the advantage of useful natural resources and the technical expertise to get the most out of them (oil, hydroelectric power, forestry). Whilst the good times were here (I'm mainly thinking about high oil prices), the Norweigian goverment saved up a huge rainy-day fund, in the anticipation that one day the economy will need help in moving away from being so oil-focussed.

 

By contrast, what industries does the UK have? They're mainly services, which could be carried out anywhere. Why would medium-to-large service companies stay in the UK, what's the advantage for them? The advantage for them of being in Europe would be easier administration, simpler taxation, basically less red tape to hold things up. (source: BBC link in post 28)

 

We simply don't benefit from trade by being in the EU anywhere near everyone seems to think.

Trading with the EU (if we're in the EU ourselves) doesn't count as import/export, therefore not subject to import/export taxes.

[Al Massey]

We pay less tax, personal and business in the UK then is paid in the EU.

Our wages are also lower.

 

Also, a lot of their customers are in the UK.

 

Why would anyone want to burn that bridge when we have trade agreements with countries in the EU that were set up outside of the EU agreement?

Also we will be able to trade with other countries of the world.

 

Am I missing something?

[Westcoaster]

We pay less tax, personal and business in the UK then is paid in the EU.

Our wages are also lower.

 

Are you sure? Looking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_of_Europe makes me think we are at the higher end of the tax burden when you include National insurance and the other 'stealth' taxes.

 

Why would anyone want to burn that bridge when we have trade agreements with countries in the EU that were set up outside of the EU agreement?

Also we will be able to trade with other countries of the world.

 

Am I missing something?

 

Why would these treaties still be valid when England is outside the EU? The change of status wil make them null and void.

 

This graphic sums up the situation from a non English UK perspective:

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]209538[/ATTACH]

[j_jza80]

This graphic sums up the situation from a non English UK perspective:

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]209538[/ATTACH]

 

How is that any different to the SNP claiming an independent Scotland would be better off outside the UK, it's biggest trading partner, but needs to be in the EU?

[Westcoaster]

How is that any different to the SNP claiming an independent Scotland would be better off outside the UK, it's biggest trading partner, but needs to be in the EU?

 

Because Scotland would be treated as an equal within the EU, not in a second class manner at present, represented by a political party that has only one MP in Scotland.

 

Scotland's fishing, farming and food sectors are very poorly represented in the EU at present by a combination of English tory MP's and Tory Lords who have no interest or experience of these important Scottish industries. The elected Scottish MP's are prevented from being directly involved in trade negotiations.

 

Better representation in Europe will allow Scotland to grow it's markets there, as high quality food and drink products are exactly what the europeans want.

[tintinmt]

I think that if your food industry is reliant on it's government promoting it in order to grow it's sales it needs to question it's products.

I think you may be overestimating what any government would do in that regard.

We mostly get on in spite them.

[mellonman]

Simply put where can you find all the pros and cons (legitimate ones)? So I can actually make my mind up , from what I know I would say out but I know nothing of actual benifits for staying in

[Kendo11]

Simply put where can you find all the pros and cons (legitimate ones)? So I can actually make my mind up , from what I know I would say out but I know nothing of actual benifits for staying in

You can't and you won't without researching the facts for yourself, gathering evidence, comparing statements, and making your own mind up.