Europe

[Annabella]

Yes

[Wez]

I hate talking about the EU, as every time I do I discover something else about it to despise

 

Some of the things you mentioned I was already aware of, its madness.

 

As already mentioned there are people using food banks, riots and a surge in support for far right movements right across Europe while a small select few splash the cash in the face of those suffering, what could possibly go wrong

[JasonR24]

We've waited decades, and what have we got to show for it?

 

10,000 EU beaurocrats are paid more than our prime minister

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10847979/10000-European-Union-officials-better-paid-than-David-Cameron.html

 

30,000 corporate lobbyists, and rising

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/08/lobbyists-european-parliament-brussels-corporate

 

An unelected, drunk EU president

http://www.channel4.com/news/jean-claude-juncker-what-you-should-know

 

 

A German leader, who no one outside Germany has voted for, is able to unilaterally dictate EU policy, while our Prime minister can't even negotiate basic reforms

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/europe-refugee-crisis-angela-merkel-offers-to-speed-up-turkey-eu-membership-in-exchange-for-help-to-a6699071.html

 

Enormous population increases

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/29/uk-population-expected-to-rise-by-almost-10-million-in-25-years

 

Horrendous youth unemployment statistics

http://www.statista.com/statistics/266228/youth-unemployment-rate-in-eu-countries/

 

Continent wide austerity

http://www.statista.com/statistics/266228/youth-unemployment-rate-in-eu-countries/

 

EU policies that create political extremism

http://europe.newsweek.com/rise-europes-far-right-threatens-peace-continent-just-ask-jews-438831

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36150807

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/25/across-europe-distrust-of-mainstream-political-parties-is-on-the-rise

 

And I could go on for the rest of the afternoon.

 

Now, I would be in total favour of some form of liberal, looser European framework, that was based on the cooperation of nation states, and not a group of unelected, highly paid people dictating what we can and can't do. But that isn't the EU, and the EU will never become this. The only way to get such an arrangement would be the disbandment of the EU and the single currency, and Brexit is the best hope for that.

 

I'm copying this to shoot down anyone on the remain side. Best post in this thread.

 

 

 

[Angarak]

For those saying they dont want to give our government more power by voting leave, atleast you'll then have the power to remove them by voting for a party whose policies you agree with (I know its usually a case of picking the lesser of the evils on offer).

 

At the moment, all we're doing is voting who we want to be our EU mouthpiece.

 

Everyone has made valid points from both sides of the debate, but this is one of the key issues for me personally.

 

 

[Kendo11]

We've waited decades, and what have we got to show for it?

 

10,000 EU beaurocrats are paid more than our prime minister

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10847979/10000-European-Union-officials-better-paid-than-David-Cameron.html

 

30,000 corporate lobbyists, and rising

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/08/lobbyists-european-parliament-brussels-corporate

 

An unelected, drunk EU president

http://www.channel4.com/news/jean-claude-juncker-what-you-should-know

 

 

A German leader, who no one outside Germany has voted for, is able to unilaterally dictate EU policy, while our Prime minister can't even negotiate basic reforms

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/europe-refugee-crisis-angela-merkel-offers-to-speed-up-turkey-eu-membership-in-exchange-for-help-to-a6699071.html

 

Enormous population increases

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/29/uk-population-expected-to-rise-by-almost-10-million-in-25-years

 

Horrendous youth unemployment statistics

http://www.statista.com/statistics/266228/youth-unemployment-rate-in-eu-countries/

 

Continent wide austerity

http://www.statista.com/statistics/266228/youth-unemployment-rate-in-eu-countries/

 

EU policies that create political extremism

http://europe.newsweek.com/rise-europes-far-right-threatens-peace-continent-just-ask-jews-438831

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36150807

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/25/across-europe-distrust-of-mainstream-political-parties-is-on-the-rise

 

And I could go on for the rest of the afternoon.

 

Now, I would be in total favour of some form of liberal, looser European framework, that was based on the cooperation of nation states, and not a group of unelected, highly paid people dictating what we can and can't do. But that isn't the EU, and the EU will never become this. The only way to get such an arrangement would be the disbandment of the EU and the single currency, and Brexit is the best hope for that.

 

You or I could very easily share some similar stories of the tories (and labour).

 

For example their behavior, their financial mismanagement, their corruption, their suspect dealings with larger corporations, their ties to depraved criminals, their immoral arms dealings, their wars.

 

They are as corrupt if not more. A study recently by a Mafia expert placed London TOP of the most corrupt cities in the world:

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/roberto-saviano-britain-corrupt-mafia-hay-festival-a7054851.html

 

Does that not seem important?

 

I agree with your points, you're not wrong in what you're saying.

 

But the logic of it is like saying I'd rather the tories destroy the NHS, than the EU, simply because they're not the EU.

 

Or I'd rather have a British dog owner let his dog shit on my lawn than someone from the EU, because he's British.

 

I go back to the silly meme I posted a while back, it's a daft picture and some words someone made.

 

But it's bloody true.

[Al Massey]

You or I could very easily share some similar stories of the tories (and labour).

 

For example their behavior, their financial mismanagement, their corruption, their suspect dealings with larger corporations, their ties to depraved criminals, their immoral arms dealings, their wars.

 

They are as corrupt if not more. A study recently by a Mafia expert placed London TOP of the most corrupt cities in the world:

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/roberto-saviano-britain-corrupt-mafia-hay-festival-a7054851.html

 

Does that not seem important?

 

I agree with your points, you're not wrong in what you're saying.

 

But the logic of it is like saying I'd rather the tories destroy the NHS, than the EU, simply because they're not the EU.

 

Or I'd rather have a British dog owner let his dog shit on my lawn than someone from the EU, because he's British.

 

I go back to the silly meme I posted a while back, it's a daft picture and some words someone made.

 

But it's bloody true.

 

But if we are not in the EU, our government will have no protection, they won't be able to hide things, can't blame red tape crap on the EU, in fact they won't be able to blame the EU for anything.

Things will be more clearer, more transparency in everything they do.

They can't hide or do anything we don't agree with.

[JasonR24]

You or I could very easily share some similar stories of the tories (and labour).

 

For example their behavior, their financial mismanagement, their corruption, their suspect dealings with larger corporations, their ties to depraved criminals, their immoral arms dealings, their wars.

 

They are as corrupt if not more. A study recently by a Mafia expert placed London TOP of the most corrupt cities in the world:

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/roberto-saviano-britain-corrupt-mafia-hay-festival-a7054851.html

 

Does that not seem important?

 

I agree with your points, you're not wrong in what you're saying.

 

But the logic of it is like saying I'd rather the tories destroy the NHS, than the EU, simply because they're not the EU.

 

Or I'd rather have a British dog owner let his dog shit on my lawn than someone from the EU, because he's British.

 

I go back to the silly meme I posted a while back, it's a daft picture and some words someone made.

 

But it's bloody true.

 

You are exactly right.

 

I've said this so many times. Our government is so damn corrupt it's disgusting. The worst part is they pretend like they do things to benefit the people.

 

At least the royalty are honest. You're a filthy peasant and you will bow down. With the government they pretend and lie it's sickening.

 

Saw this in water stones:

 

It's interesting there are no pro EU books at all.

 

Still the leave option is better for the simple fact there will be more transparency.

 

 

[Kendo11]

But if we are not in the EU, our government will have no protection, they won't be able to hide things, can't blame red tape crap on the EU, in fact they won't be able to blame the EU for anything.

Things will be more clearer, more transparency in everything they do.

They can't hide or do anything we don't agree with.

That's not what the chap in the article seems to think mate.

 

 

[Pete]

You've convinced me.

 

We should go one step further I feel and break up to return back to the Kingdom of England.

Let's have a civil war, throw out the monarchy and burn WestMinster then transfer the English capital back to Winchester where it belonged before those bloody Frenchies intervened. Go back to paying our taxes to the local Lord of the Manor.

 

It all went wrong when Edward 1st thought it'd be a good idea to bring Wales into the club. What kind of a fool thought it would be a good idea to unify Wales and England to create the largest military force in Europe?

After that the Stuarts managed to bring in Scotland and Ireland but was it really worth the effort after the years of civil war and blood shed? Should've left well alone in my book. Let's rip up the Union with Scotland Act 1706 - we don't need that bunch of moaners anyway.

 

Maybe we should just carry on burning fossil fuels, polluting the world, cut down all trees, build on every single bit of green on the planet?

Global warming is a myth (as you well know).

[Pete]

Wow that sort of thinking is the problem.

 

sad sad times

I'm a realist. Hippies don't get very far in this world.

 

It's interesting there are no pro EU books at all.

Not really.

For the same reason most of the papers go with reporting all the outrageous mostly unsubstantiated twisted headlines. It sells. That and it's the leave supporting making all the blah blah noise. I'm expecting the quiet sensible ones will go out and vote on the day.

Nobody would buy a book titled "It's okay chaps, we're on the right track" or read newspapers with good will stories.

[JasonR24]

You've convinced me.

 

We should go one step further I feel and break up to return back to the Kingdom of England.

Let's have a civil war, throw out the monarchy and burn WestMinster then transfer the English capital back to Winchester where it belonged before those bloody Frenchies intervened. Go back to paying our taxes to the local Lord of the Manor.

 

It all went wrong when Edward 1st thought it'd be a good idea to bring Wales into the club. What kind of a fool thought it would be a good idea to unify Wales and England to create the largest military force in Europe?

After that the Stuarts managed to bring in Scotland and Ireland but was it really worth the effort after the years of civil war and blood shed? Should've left well alone in my book. Let's rip up the Union with Scotland Act 1706 - we don't need that bunch of moaners anyway.

 

 

Global warming is a myth (as you well know).

 

We haven't moved forward really. We still pay bloody tax to the self acclaimed lords of England. It's called the city of London inc.

 

 

 

[Pete]

We haven't moved forward really. We still pay bloody tax to the self acclaimed lords of England. It's called the city of London inc.

 

 

/QUOTE]

It was much more fun when they were whacking each other with swords rather than jeering at each other like children.

[Al Massey]

You've convinced me.

 

We should go one step further I feel and break up to return back to the Kingdom of England.

Let's have a civil war, throw out the monarchy and burn WestMinster then transfer the English capital back to Winchester where it belonged before those bloody Frenchies intervened. Go back to paying our taxes to the local Lord of the Manor.

 

It all went wrong when Edward 1st thought it'd be a good idea to bring Wales into the club. What kind of a fool thought it would be a good idea to unify Wales and England to create the largest military force in Europe?

After that the Stuarts managed to bring in Scotland and Ireland but was it really worth the effort after the years of civil war and blood shed? Should've left well alone in my book. Let's rip up the Union with Scotland Act 1706 - we don't need that bunch of moaners anyway.

 

 

Global warming is a myth (as you well know).

 

Nah go back to when the Romans or the Vikings rules and have York as the true capital again

 

I never said global warming though

[Al Massey]

I'm a realist. Hippies don't get very far in this world.

 

 

Not really.

For the same reason most of the papers go with reporting all the outrageous mostly unsubstantiated twisted headlines. It sells. That and it's the leave supporting making all the blah blah noise. I'm expecting the quiet sensible ones will go out and vote on the day.

Nobody would buy a book titled "It's okay chaps, we're on the right track" or read newspapers with good will stories.

 

Is that the same reason the news is all pro remain and extremely biased quoting facts when it's proven there facts are fake and made up, yet the news keeps reporting for the remain side?

[Kendo11]

Nah go back to when the Romans or the Vikings rules and have York as the true capital again

 

I never said global warming though

My ancestry goes back to the vikings so I'm up for that! (although most people's probably does lol)

 

 

[Al Massey]

My ancestry goes back to the vikings so I'm up for that! (although most people's probably does lol)

 

/QUOTE]

 

Mine goes back to William the Conquerer lol

[Scooter]

I'm off to do some research on how we got to actually vote on this. Somewhere along the line someone with influence pushed for this to happen, I've no idea how long ago it was and who was behind it?

[Annabella]

I'm off to do some research on how we got to actually vote on this. Somewhere along the line someone with influence pushed for this to happen, I've no idea how long ago it was and who was behind it?

 

V good point, was it not slotted into the Tory manifesto to help win the election, when the coalition was formed? To take votes away from ukip etc?

[Scooter]

Yes you are right, showing up my lack of knowledge in this area!

[Pete]

Is that the same reason the news is all pro remain and extremely biased quoting facts when it's proven there facts are fake and made up, yet the news keeps reporting for the remain side?

 

I don't read the news to be honest. It's all nonsense.

 

My ancestry has some Chinese in it somewhere.

 

Nobody going to pick up the global warming is a myth comment? You lot are no fun sometimes.

[Scooter]

All I know is it's really hard to know who/what to believe these days especially politics wise. Pete has been quite frank with his personal outlook and essentially looking after number one to a point, so how much are David and Boris? Are they 20% 'us' 80% their own goals? Is it even naive to think it's even 20%!? I think there are some genuine people in politics who are selfless and firmly believe in their views being in the countries best interests but I'll be damned if I can pick them out and with spin and the media they could be discredited or kept out of the limelight etc.

[j_jza80]

All I know is it's really hard to know who/what to believe these days especially politics wise. Pete has been quite frank with his personal outlook and essentially looking after number one to a point, so how much are David and Boris? Are they 20% 'us' 80% their own goals? Is it even naive to think it's even 20%!? I think there are some genuine people in politics who are selfless and firmly believe in their views being in the countries best interests but I'll be damned if I can pick them out and with spin and the media they could be discredited or kept out of the limelight etc.

 

Honest politicians are a rare breed, and I doubt you'd find a single one among the ranks of the Tories / Labour / UKIP / Lib Dems / SNP today.

 

Certainly, if you want to listen to an honest politician, you could do worse than Tony Benn. He's not with us now, but I doubt you could find anyone from anywhere on the political spectrum who would call him dishonest. He was a very well respected man.

 

[Pete]

Pete has been quite frank with his personal outlook and essentially looking after number one to a point, so how much are David and Boris?

I'll be Frank as long as you'll be Shirley.

 

I see it like this. I've worked hard all my life pushing money into the economy and getting very little in return aside from NHS care. It actually gives me a warm glow to think money is going to the Greeks because they really need improvements throughout everything, completely understand why 99.9% of people won't think that way.

 

I've saved a small amount in the bank to make sure we're covered for most eventualities so am prepared and don't worry. (Easily stressed). I don't have much in the way of assets but am instead putting my efforts into my businesses so I can sell them for good money in the future. That's my pension. I expect nothing from the government.

 

My father in laws recent death has given me pause for thought and re-evaluation of my end goals. You're only here once and you have to make the most of the situation you're given.

I share the concerns in this thread about how the current world affairs could jeopardise this.

I do actually love the idealisms of the vote out campaign and my heart is there, but my brain cannot cope with the idea knowingly going forward into an economic downturn, this scares the willies out of me. I'm not a betting man.

[Annabella]

Frankly there lies the problem (see what I did there?)

Knowingly going into economic downturn, recession? You have been affected by the spin. Last quarter was a slow down in growth anyway, its a smokescreen because the economy isn't performing, as planned under the increased austerity since the last election, regardless of brexit or not. As the article says, last quarter in 2015 was a small rise of 0.6% and again slowing - and says no evidence of brexit uncertaintees affecting these figures.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/apr/27/uk-gdp-growth-slows-to-04-amid-eu-referendum-uncertainty

[Chris Wilson]

Thousands of foreign voters wrongly sent voting cards. The number is considered to possibly e well under the real figure as some councils have not replied to requests for the details:

 

Polling cards were wrongly sent to at least 3,462 EU citizens who are not allowed to vote in the EU referendum, the Electoral Commission has announced.

 

A software "issue" meant polling cards and some postal votes were sent out to some "non eligible" voters.

 

They are still awaiting responses from six councils so the number could rise.

 

Leave campaigners Iain Duncan Smith and Bernard Jenkin have expressed "serious concerns" about the "conduct of the EU referendum and its franchise".

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36446521

 

 

What an utter shambles, personally I think they should cancel the referendum date and re-issue new voting cards. A few hundred more boatloads of illegals being found crossing the Channel will do the Leave campaign another power of good... https://forums.overclockers.co.uk/images/smilies/smile.gif

 

As an aside I was quite surprised to see ow well Neil Hamilton handled himself on Question Time the other night. I have never liked nor rated him or his wife Christine much at all, but to give him his due is only fair.

 

 

 

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