Europe

[Kendo11]

There in lies the difference between us.

I have no kids or plans to have them. Call me selfish, but I couldn't give a crap about the next generation. I'm only interested in living out the rest of my days in relative comfort.

Same.

 

 

[Kendo11]

Interesting perspective here.

 

I agree with barely anything she usually says and don't particularly like her but this is a sensible, realistic article.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/eu-referendum-migration-migrants-arrive-british-shores-policing-coastlines-remain-eu-a7063261.html

 

 

[stevie_b]

And I think it's absurd to say we're are in a better position to change things if we are in.

If that was the case, it would have been changed already.

Our reforms would already be agreed to and implemented.

The EU would have done everything to keep us in.

 

But why hasn't those been sorted and done?

Just because it's still broken, it doesn't follow that the best thing to do is to leave. These things can take decades to change/fix. The question for me is: can it realistically be fixed within a timeline we can stomach? My own view is "only via drastic reforms, moving away from a political union". Can this happen within a sensible timeframe? I dunno.

 

Well I think the EU will want to avoid crumbling up. So it's not difficult to understand why it would be very harsh on its negotiations with the UK when if we leave. That would certainly deter others from wanting to leave, no? I'm sure you've seen the Eurogroup's stance on Greece and its debts, they've made a very good example of it to other Eurozone countries, there's no escape from previous commitments, no room for negotiation.

Good point, and quite likely in my humble opinion. The remaining EU countries wouldn't want to give the leavers a soft landing. Being a net importer of EU goods does put us in a strong position at the negotiation table, but I don't think the EU would bend over to appease the UK.

[j_jza80]

There in lies the difference between us.

I have no kids or plans to have them. Call me selfish, but I couldn't give a crap about the next generation. I'm only interested in living out the rest of my days in relative comfort.

 

I have no kids either, but this isn't just about the future generations, it's about the past too, and what is right and fair.

 

None of the people who are voting in this referendum had to fight for our democratic rights. We are fortunate that we live in a country where our ancestors made great sacrifices to earn purchase democracy.

 

Because we didn't earn our democratic rights, I believe that we are only custodians of them, they are not ours to do with as we wish, certainly not to give away to a foreign, unelected power.

 

Just as I don't think the greenbelt is ours to destroy with housing, roads and infrastructure for an extra 300,000 people per year. I've had to watch as over the last couple of decades, all the local countryside, fields etc I used to play in as a child, even the playing field of my primary school, have been converted into housing estates.

 

I don't think we have the right to wreck this country.

[JasonR24]

I have no kids either, but this isn't just about the future generations, it's about the past too, and what is right and fair.

 

None of the people who are voting in this referendum had to fight for our democratic rights. We are fortunate that we live in a country where our ancestors made great sacrifices to earn purchase democracy.

 

Because we didn't earn our democratic rights, I believe that we are only custodians of them, they are not ours to do with as we wish, certainly not to give away to a foreign, unelected power.

 

Just as I don't think the greenbelt is ours to destroy with housing, roads and infrastructure for an extra 300,000 people per year. I've had to watch as over the last couple of decades, all the local countryside, fields etc I used to play in as a child, even the playing field of my primary school, have been converted into housing estates.

 

I don't think we have the right to wreck this country.

 

Agree!

 

What gets me is people don't see how this does affect them. Everyone would be better off with a fairer world right now, so the fact some people think it only affects further generations scares me. If the majority stood together for even one day and demanded change or even more simply made it change then we wouldn't have the top 0.001% of the world having 100% of the control.

 

 

 

[Kendo11]

Agree!

 

What gets me is people don't see how this does affect them. Everyone would be better off with a fairer world right now, so the fact some people think it only affects further generations scares me. If the majority stood together for even one day and demanded change or even more simply made it change then we wouldn't have the top 0.001% of the world having 100% of the control.

 

 

/QUOTE]

All of us are too happy with our nice cars and houses and TVs and don't go out onto the streets to demand change.

 

There is no 'will of the people' as far as that goes.

 

 

[Al Massey]

How on Earth can you blame BHS on the EU?

Do you just have a template with in it?

 

My tomatoes didn't ripen last year. EU's fault.

 

At what point do you think I have blamed the BHS pending closure on the EU?

 

I haven't.

I said that companies and businesses still close whilst we have been part of the EU.

 

So in that regard, how on earth can you blame us leaving the EU for businesses closing or sacking people?

 

There is no proof whatsoever that businesses would close, or that it would sack their employees.

[Pete]

it's about the past too, and what is right and fair.

Right and fair? What kind of fairy tale land do you live in?

 

I don't think we have the right to wreck this country.

Oh the past? Yeah, you're right about the past - how far shall we go back? The biggest mistake we made was dissolving the British Empire and letting the bloody Americans get their own way. If we'd sorted that bunch of upstarts out we wouldn't be in this mess now.

 

The past is gone. We're way too far down this road to turn back now. Too much has changed, this glory day the older generation are clinging to is no more.

 

I think most of us agree that the politicians we have are doing a great job this themselves with the power they have. You want to give them MORE power? No thanks.

[Pete]

At what point do you think I have blamed the BHS pending closure on the EU?

 

I haven't..

 

Look at how many jobs are gone or going since we've been in.

And look at what is happening currently.

BHS is one.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

There is no proof whatsoever that businesses would close, or that it would sack their employees.

 

If there's another recession, possibly worse than before - then one of my businesses would have a downturn and I will end up laying people off. Fact.

Unfortunately (before my time) it's not been run in a way that it has any money in the bank to weather another storm.

I'm not alone.

[JasonR24]

Right and fair? What kind of fairy tale land do you live in?

.

 

Wow that sort of thinking is the problem.

 

sad sad times

 

 

 

[j_jza80]

Right and fair? What kind of fairy tale land do you live in?

 

 

Oh the past? Yeah, you're right about the past - how far shall we go back? The biggest mistake we made was dissolving the British Empire and letting the bloody Americans get their own way. If we'd sorted that bunch of upstarts out we wouldn't be in this mess now.

 

The past is gone. We're way too far down this road to turn back now. Too much has changed, this glory day the older generation are clinging to is no more.

 

I think most of us agree that the politicians we have are doing a great job this themselves with the power they have. You want to give them MORE power? No thanks.

 

I want them to have less power. I want democracy and accountability to be local, not in a foreign country, hundreds of miles away. Just because you (and I) don't think Westminster works, isn't justification for selling our sovereignty to the lowest bidder.

 

You may not respect the sacrifices people have made in the past for what we have today, and that is your choice, but I do. I'm not talking about Empire and global domination (which I didn't even mention), just basic freedoms, which it appears some of us take for granted. I can assure you, when they're gone, largely due to the 30,000 corporate lobbyists which reside in Brussels, they will be missed.

[stevie_b]

There is no proof whatsoever that businesses would close, or that it would sack their employees.

More conjecture than proof, but this came out today:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36446023

The JPM guy was speaking with Osborne. How much credibility this news story has, perhaps depends on whether Dimon invited Osborne there for purely political reasons (I think that's highly unlikely), or whether he did it because he's worried about Brexit.

[Kendo11]

I have no kids either, but this isn't just about the future generations, it's about the past too, and what is right and fair.

 

None of the people who are voting in this referendum had to fight for our democratic rights. We are fortunate that we live in a country where our ancestors made great sacrifices to earn purchase democracy.

 

Because we didn't earn our democratic rights, I believe that we are only custodians of them, they are not ours to do with as we wish, certainly not to give away to a foreign, unelected power.

 

Just as I don't think the greenbelt is ours to destroy with housing, roads and infrastructure for an extra 300,000 people per year. I've had to watch as over the last couple of decades, all the local countryside, fields etc I used to play in as a child, even the playing field of my primary school, have been converted into housing estates.

 

I don't think we have the right to wreck this country.

Do you think that will be worse, better, or the same with the tories in power and no EU?

 

 

[Kendo11]

Wow that sort of thinking is the problem.

 

sad sad times

 

 

/QUOTE]

I'd say it's pretty accurate to be honest.

 

Not very nice, pretty shameful, but accurate.

 

If people wanted things to be just and fair and right then the country wouldn't be in the state it's in, regardless of who's at the top.

 

 

[Al Massey]

The statements I made regarding the recession are not contradictory. I personally think that there will be a recession and massive job losses despite the unfounded assurances of the Leave group.

 

I believe the housing market will burst much sooner if we get out. Another crappy argument we keep hearing from OUT campaigners is that housing shortage is mainly due to immigration. It is certainly linked but it's only a tiny part of the truth. Most low-skilled, low-paid Europeans rent and can't afford to buy.

 

Well I think the EU will want to avoid crumbling up. So it's not difficult to understand why it would be very harsh on its negotiations with the UK when if we leave. That would certainly deter others from wanting to leave, no? I'm sure you've seen the Eurogroup's stance on Greece and its debts, they've made a very good example of it to other Eurozone countries, there's no escape from previous commitments, no room for negotiation.

 

Lastly, of course you're in a better position to suggest and encourage change from within. It will take time but the UK is not the only country willing to change the EU. Why not form alliances within the group to put our point across? Leaving would be a miscalculated knee-jerk reaction. If the average Joe is convinced that he's being lied at and knows better than most prominent economists and think-tanks then fine. I wouldn't be ready to risk what we have for a totally utopian fabrication.

 

Well yes it does.

No one can say for certain what will happen, which you said, but then said it will.

So you are claiming for a fact that it will.

 

No one knows for a fact.

 

Housing shortage isn't just about buying houses, it's renting, it's social housing, it's low cost housing.

There is a shortage everywhere in the housing market.

 

Oh and all low skilled, low paid Europeans don't pay tax, and claim in work benefits.

Fact.

Just as many British citizens to.

 

But again, if the EU is harsh on the UK for leaving, which it's not allowed to be under WTO rules, we could be equally harsh on them.

Considering the amount we import from the EU, they really wouldn't want to harm their economy if we decided to deal more outside the EU.

I don't see the EU biting off their nose to spite us.

 

Greece is a different subject and should never have been given membership.

God knows why the EU did that.

 

And again, if we were in a better position to demand change being in, it would have happened already.

[Al Massey]

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

 

 

If there's another recession, possibly worse than before - then one of my businesses would have a downturn and I will end up laying people off. Fact.

Unfortunately (before my time) it's not been run in a way that it has any money in the bank to weather another storm.

I'm not alone.

 

I know exactly what I said.

The fact that you think it means I'm blaming the EU is ridiculous.

[Al Massey]

There in lies the difference between us.

I have no kids or plans to have them. Call me selfish, but I couldn't give a crap about the next generation. I'm only interested in living out the rest of my days in relative comfort.

 

And probably a huge difference in most remainers and brexiters.

 

People with no money are happy to fight for their country and make sacrifices

People with money only want more money and couldn't care about anyone else or their countries future.

 

I wonder what our country would be like if past generations couldn't give a crap about our generation?

 

Maybe we should just carry on burning fossil fuels, polluting the world, cut down all trees, build on every single bit of green on the planet?

[j_jza80]

Do you think that will be worse, better, or the same with the tories in power and no EU?

 

/QUOTE]

 

I think we are more likely to get a government we want if we're out of the EU. For too long, the Tories and Labour have been able to point the finger over the channel to get out of addressing problems in the UK. If we're out, there will no longer be a scapegoat. We need electoral reform in the UK too, but that is really a different subject. I don't think the flaws in our democracy justify another level of undemocratic governance and bureaucracy.

 

Also, if we vote to remain in, UKIP will simply become stronger. Millions of natural Labour voters, betrayed by their parties attitude towards the British working class, will look to other parties who will represent them. Now, I think all this stuff about UKIP being a far right party is utter nonsense, but I certainly don't want people like Roger Helmer, Neil Hamilton, and Paul Nuttall running the country.

[Kendo11]

I think we are more likely to get a government we want if we're out of the EU. For too long, the Tories and Labour have been able to point the finger over the channel to get out of addressing problems in the UK. If we're out, there will no longer be a scapegoat. We need electoral reform in the UK too, but that is really a different subject. I don't think the flaws in our democracy justify another level of undemocratic governance and bureaucracy.

 

Also, if we vote to remain in, UKIP will simply become stronger. Millions of natural Labour voters, betrayed by their parties attitude towards the British working class, will look to other parties who will represent them. Now, I think all this stuff about UKIP being a far right party is utter nonsense, but I certainly don't want people like Roger Helmer, Neil Hamilton, and Paul Nuttall running the country.

Very good points.

 

 

[Multics]

Well yes it does.

No one can say for certain what will happen, which you said, but then said it will.

So you are claiming for a fact that it will.

 

No one knows for a fact.

 

Although it's impossible to predict what's going to happen, my gut is telling me that we're headed into a deep mess if we decide to leave. That's my personal opinion.

 

Housing shortage isn't just about buying houses, it's renting, it's social housing, it's low cost housing.

There is a shortage everywhere in the housing market.

 

You're right, but we can't blame just the EU's freedom of movement right for the shortage of housing. Local councils and central government have failed to act.

 

Oh and all low skilled, low paid Europeans don't pay tax, and claim in work benefits.

Fact.

Just as many British citizens to.

 

That's a bold statement. I can go on and state the opposite, from personal experience all the European expats I know of (including myself) never claimed benefits and pay high tax rate on their revenues. The only benefit abusers I personally see are predominantly white British.

 

But again, if the EU is harsh on the UK for leaving, which it's not allowed to be under WTO rules, we could be equally harsh on them.

 

Considering the amount we import from the EU, they really wouldn't want to harm their economy if we decided to deal more outside the EU.

I don't see the EU biting off their nose to spite us.

 

I think we have more to lose than they do. 440M people vs 60M people... The numbers speak for themselves.

 

Greece is a different subject and should never have been given membership.

God knows why the EU did that.

 

I think you're confusing EURO (currency) with EU. Greece has been an EEC / EU member since 1981, what are you actually debating?

 

And again, if we were in a better position to demand change being in, it would have happened already.

 

Think of a disgruntled employee, he has more chances of negotiating a pay rise and different working hours while being employed vs being unemployed... Both patience and good arguments are required.

[j_jza80]

Think of a disgruntled employee, he has more chances of negotiating a pay rise and different working hours while being employed vs being unemployed... Both patience and good arguments are required.

 

We've waited decades, and what have we got to show for it?

 

10,000 EU beaurocrats are paid more than our prime minister

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10847979/10000-European-Union-officials-better-paid-than-David-Cameron.html

 

30,000 corporate lobbyists, and rising

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/08/lobbyists-european-parliament-brussels-corporate

 

An unelected, drunk EU president

http://www.channel4.com/news/jean-claude-juncker-what-you-should-know

 

 

A German leader, who no one outside Germany has voted for, is able to unilaterally dictate EU policy, while our Prime minister can't even negotiate basic reforms

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/europe-refugee-crisis-angela-merkel-offers-to-speed-up-turkey-eu-membership-in-exchange-for-help-to-a6699071.html

 

Enormous population increases

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/29/uk-population-expected-to-rise-by-almost-10-million-in-25-years

 

Horrendous youth unemployment statistics

http://www.statista.com/statistics/266228/youth-unemployment-rate-in-eu-countries/

 

Continent wide austerity

http://www.statista.com/statistics/266228/youth-unemployment-rate-in-eu-countries/

 

EU policies that create political extremism

http://europe.newsweek.com/rise-europes-far-right-threatens-peace-continent-just-ask-jews-438831

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36150807

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/25/across-europe-distrust-of-mainstream-political-parties-is-on-the-rise

 

And I could go on for the rest of the afternoon.

 

Now, I would be in total favour of some form of liberal, looser European framework, that was based on the cooperation of nation states, and not a group of unelected, highly paid people dictating what we can and can't do. But that isn't the EU, and the EU will never become this. The only way to get such an arrangement would be the disbandment of the EU and the single currency, and Brexit is the best hope for that.

[Wez]

I have no kids either, but this isn't just about the future generations, it's about the past too, and what is right and fair.

 

None of the people who are voting in this referendum had to fight for our democratic rights. We are fortunate that we live in a country where our ancestors made great sacrifices to earn purchase democracy.

 

Because we didn't earn our democratic rights, I believe that we are only custodians of them, they are not ours to do with as we wish, certainly not to give away to a foreign, unelected power.

 

Just as I don't think the greenbelt is ours to destroy with housing, roads and infrastructure for an extra 300,000 people per year. I've had to watch as over the last couple of decades, all the local countryside, fields etc I used to play in as a child, even the playing field of my primary school, have been converted into housing estates.

 

I don't think we have the right to wreck this country.

 

Good post

[Multics]

We've waited decades, and what have we got to show for it?

 

10,000 EU beaurocrats are paid more than our prime minister

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10847979/10000-European-Union-officials-better-paid-than-David-Cameron.html

 

30,000 corporate lobbyists, and rising

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/08/lobbyists-european-parliament-brussels-corporate

 

An unelected, drunk EU president

http://www.channel4.com/news/jean-claude-juncker-what-you-should-know

 

 

A German leader, who no one outside Germany has voted for, is able to unilaterally dictate EU policy, while our Prime minister can't even negotiate basic reforms

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/europe-refugee-crisis-angela-merkel-offers-to-speed-up-turkey-eu-membership-in-exchange-for-help-to-a6699071.html

 

Enormous population increases

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/29/uk-population-expected-to-rise-by-almost-10-million-in-25-years

 

Horrendous youth unemployment statistics

http://www.statista.com/statistics/266228/youth-unemployment-rate-in-eu-countries/

 

Continent wide austerity

http://www.statista.com/statistics/266228/youth-unemployment-rate-in-eu-countries/

 

EU policies that create political extremism

http://europe.newsweek.com/rise-europes-far-right-threatens-peace-continent-just-ask-jews-438831

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36150807

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/25/across-europe-distrust-of-mainstream-political-parties-is-on-the-rise

 

And I could go on for the rest of the afternoon.

 

Now, I would be in total favour of some form of liberal, looser European framework, that was based on the cooperation of nation states, and not a group of unelected, highly paid people dictating what we can and can't do. But that isn't the EU, and the EU will never become this. The only way to get such an arrangement would be the disbandment of the EU and the single currency, and Brexit is the best hope for that.

 

That video you posted on Juncker is cringe worthy, I can only agree with you and will never defend that kind of behaviour. Regarding the numbers of EU employees, you have to put things into context. The European Commission employs 33.000 people from across Europe, that's less than twice the size of Birmingham Council employees. That's for the whole Europe...

 

While the senior staff of the Commission are indeed unelected, so are bureaucrats almost everywhere, including those in Whitehall. And those staff – as well as being appointed by the elected governments of the member states, and being subject to confirmation in their positions by the elected European Parliament, and having to report regularly to the EP – cannot make final decisions on EU law or policy. Those decisions are made by the Council of Ministers (consisting of ministers from the elected governments of the member states) and the elected EP. Furthermore, the general direction of the EU is guided by the European Council, consisting of the elected heads of government (or state) of the 28 EU member states. And all the EU institutions are accountable to the treaties and the European Court of Justice. The idea that there is a European government in Brussels with independent powers is nothing more than a myth.

 

I lived 25 years in Brussels and perhaps witnessed a different reality than where I live now (rural England), the European project was and still remains about bringing nations together not just trading agreements. I can go on and list all the good things that the EU has done that we take for granted.

 

The question is whether we want to jeopardise all that the EU (including the UK as a member state) has achieved and replace that with for a totally unknown alternative. I certainly don't see the disbandment of the EU as a good thing as you do because my prosperity, education, way of life (and peace for 60 years) are directly linked to the EU's very existence. It's far from perfect, but so are most things in life. I don't think for a minute that the UK or the EU will be better off without each other.

[Al Massey]

Although it's impossible to predict what's going to happen, my gut is telling me that we're headed into a deep mess if we decide to leave. That's my personal opinion.

 

 

 

You're right, but we can't blame just the EU's freedom of movement right for the shortage of housing. Local councils and central government have failed to act.

 

 

 

That's a bold statement. I can go on and state the opposite, from personal experience all the European expats I know of (including myself) never claimed benefits and pay high tax rate on their revenues. The only benefit abusers I personally see are predominantly white British.

 

 

 

I think we have more to lose than they do. 440M people vs 60M people... The numbers speak for themselves.

 

 

 

I think you're confusing EURO (currency) with EU. Greece has been an EEC / EU member since 1981, what are you actually debating?

 

 

 

Think of a disgruntled employee, he has more chances of negotiating a pay rise and different working hours while being employed vs being unemployed... Both patience and good arguments are required.

 

See, I agree with that it "may" happen, I too believe there will be an impact on economy, but I think it will be short lived.

We don't just leave the EU the very next day, it does take years, so for the foreseeable future, what can change?

 

Maybe we can't blame the EU.

But we can look at a few figures.

 

Over 697,000 EU citizens registered for national insurance numbers in 2015 alone so they can work in the UK

But we only 240,000 houses built in the whole of 2015 nationwide.

 

Straight away there is a huge deficit in houses just from EU migrants.

What if we add non EU migrants, asylum seekers, refugees?

The numbers get bigger and bigger.

 

You can't say it's local councils and governments jobs for not building enough houses.

And this is where the strain on the NHS comes in, schools, GP's etc

 

It's not a bold statement, it's true for unskilled low paid workers.

And I did say it's the same for British citizens.

 

If you're paid below the minimum bracket, you don't pay tax.

If you're paid below the living wage, you get in work benefits to top up your wage.

 

Now I'm not saying that all immigrants are that, it's mainly low paid and unskilled.

[j_jza80]

Regarding the numbers of EU employees, you have to put things into context. The European Commission employs 33.000 people from across Europe, that's less than twice the size of Birmingham Council employees. That's for the whole Europe...

 

My point was not about the number of EU employees, but the number of them who earn more money, and pay less tax, than our Prime Minister. It is simply an enormous amount, and what do these people contribute? Are they worth over one hundred thousand pounds each? I doubt it.

 

While the senior staff of the Commission are indeed unelected, so are bureaucrats almost everywhere, including those in Whitehall. And those staff – as well as being appointed by the elected governments of the member states, and being subject to confirmation in their positions by the elected European Parliament, and having to report regularly to the EP – cannot make final decisions on EU law or policy. Those decisions are made by the Council of Ministers (consisting of ministers from the elected governments of the member states) and the elected EP. Furthermore, the general direction of the EU is guided by the European Council, consisting of the elected heads of government (or state) of the 28 EU member states. And all the EU institutions are accountable to the treaties and the European Court of Justice. The idea that there is a European government in Brussels with independent powers is nothing more than a myth.

 

But the commission aren't just bureaucrats. They are the ones who present and repeal legislation in the EU. In our demcracy, only elected members of parliament can do that. In the EU, all the parliament can do is vote on what is put in front of them.

 

I lived 25 years in Brussels and perhaps witnessed a different reality than where I live now (rural England), the European project was and still remains about bringing nations together not just trading agreements. I can go on and list all the good things that the EU has done that we take for granted.

 

The question is whether we want to jeopardise all that the EU (including the UK as a member state) has achieved and replace that with for a totally unknown alternative. I certainly don't see the disbandment of the EU as a good thing as you do because my prosperity, education, way of life (and peace for 60 years) are directly linked to the EU's very existence. It's far from perfect, but so are most things in life. I don't think for a minute that the UK or the EU will be better off without each other.

 

What are these good things? We used to travel all over the world before the EU even existed, so free movement isn't worth the downsides. And what can possibly justify the abhorrent way the Eu is treating the Greeks? While their people starve, and the EU continues to lecture about pollution, it is treating itself to private jet travel and a fleet of chauffeur driven limousines:

 

http://www.politico.eu/article/meps-stretch-the-budget-for-limos-and-drivers-european-parliament-spending-brussels-strasbourg/

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/12144060/EU-Force-One-Juncker-commutes-to-Strasbourg-by-private-jet.html

 

Then there's the enormous cluster**** that is the movement of the parliament on a regular basis. Hundreds of millions of Euros, just to move up the road, while European people starve

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/10565686/The-farce-of-the-EU-travelling-circus.html

 

I hate talking about the EU, as every time I do I discover something else about it to despise