Europe

[SteveC]

What I've recently learnt is that, when someone decides to vote leave, there's no changing their mind - no matter how many arguments are thrown at them.

 

On the other hand, I know of people who were 'definitely' going to vote remain, but have now seen the light and are going to vote leave.

 

Sorry, but you're probably just banging your head against the wall, Pete.

[David P]

I have recently learned a few things too and which swung me from in, to definitely out.

[Kendo11]

If you think going it alone will kerb migration then think again.

 

I keep hearing how we should be like Switzerland, but has anyone bothered to look at the trade agreements that Switzerland had to make with the EU?

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland–European_Union_relations

Yeah that Switzerland comparison.....can't think of the last time someone found a bazillion deutschmarks in gold bullion over here.

 

 

[TBDevelopments]

If you think going it alone will kerb migration then think again.

 

I keep hearing how we should be like Switzerland, but has anyone bothered to look at the trade agreements that Switzerland had to make with the EU?

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland–European_Union_relations

 

its a step in the right direction though. Those were put in place "for" a trade agreement, remember the eu traders with us more than we trade with them and its still a choice. If we remain those factors are forced if we like it or not.

 

Just my opinion

 

Tim

TB Developments

[Al Massey]

I've said many a time that this system is broken but the ones on benefits don't want to risk losing their benefits so they have something to lose, the middle class don't want to risk losing what they have in life and end up poor so they do nothing, the richer of us think they are the most well off so are pretty content and don't want the system to change and the mega rich are the ones with the power who have made this system of fake democracy.

 

No one really wants change or democracy. Clearly. People think they do but no one is willing to risk their way of life to save it. Including myself. If someone said i could guarantee a fair system if I simply gave up everything I own then I'd have to seriously think about it.

 

 

/QUOTE]

 

I feel I'm risking everything by voting out.

Even if we are hit with all these prices and extra cuts Cameron keeps banging on about, I'm pretty much screwed with mine and my partners way of life.

I'd have to sell most things, get a second job and only provide for my new son and have nothing for me and probably eat scraps.

 

But it's something I believe is right for my son and not for me right now.

 

This vote isn't for now, or next year or even 5 years.

It's for the future of our country and our children and grandchildren.

 

I'm prepared to lose a hell of a lot from my life, so my son doesn't have too.

 

I was prepared to lose my limbs and life for my country, and I'd do it all again in a heartbeat!

[TBDevelopments]

i think most of it is scaremongering to get his way.

[j_jza80]

If you think going it alone will kerb migration then think again.

 

I keep hearing how we should be like Switzerland, but has anyone bothered to look at the trade agreements that Switzerland had to make with the EU?

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland–European_Union_relations

 

Haven't the Swiss people just rejected mass immigration in a referendum? From what I gather, the politicians haven't acted on it yet, but they have to within the next year or so.

[JasonR24]

I feel I'm risking everything by voting out.

Even if we are hit with all these prices and extra cuts Cameron keeps banging on about, I'm pretty much screwed with mine and my partners way of life.

I'd have to sell most things, get a second job and only provide for my new son and have nothing for me and probably eat scraps.

 

But it's something I believe is right for my son and not for me right now.

 

This vote isn't for now, or next year or even 5 years.

It's for the future of our country and our children and grandchildren.

 

I'm prepared to lose a hell of a lot from my life, so my son doesn't have too.

 

I was prepared to lose my limbs and life for my country, and I'd do it all again in a heartbeat!

 

That's very admirable but I would bet most wouldn't do the same.

 

I also don't think it will be anywhere near as bad as people think, if anything bad even does happen, if we leave the EU.

 

Cameron is scaremongering. He's a proven liar and that says a lot seeing as all politicians lie and no one blinks an eye.

 

Why would leaving the EU make you so much worse off? I can't imagine it being any worse for me personally if I'm honest. I work on the railway just to be open

 

 

 

[Al Massey]

That's very admirable but I would bet most wouldn't do the same.

 

I also don't think it will be anywhere near as bad as people think, if anything bad even does happen, if we leave the EU.

 

Cameron is scaremongering. He's a proven liar and that says a lot seeing as all politicians lie and no one blinks an eye.

 

Why would leaving the EU make you so much worse off? I can't imagine it being any worse for me personally if I'm honest. I work on the railway just to be open

 

 

/QUOTE]

 

Well considering that most leave voters are uneducated northerners with normal low paid jobs according to the government and the remain camps, and the amount of people wanting to leave, they are all willing to give up a few luxuries and money.

 

We all know there may be some side affects somewhere down the line, I doubt anyone believes it's at the extent Cameron says, except the remainers id imagine.

[Wez]

[Wez]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLTTjWLyBhY

[Big Supes]

...

[Big Supes]

The 'stay' side scaremonger about price hikes for households, while the 'leave' camp reassure us with claims of household savings.

 

Personally, I don't think there will be much of a change initially, but in the long-term, leaving a failing economy and avoiding future bailouts, I believe we will be looking back and laughing at the very thought of us pondering over staying or leaving.

[Kendo11]

Personally I'm not really buying what either side are saying.

 

I wonder if the Armenia announcement today in Germany will affect how much of a cooperative EU member Turkey will be? Turkey have already this evening done what Basil Fawlty told us not to and mentioned the war.

 

Couple that with Turkeys rumoured dealings with IS I wonder how helpful they'll be as a security partner in the EU.

 

 

[Annabella]

Personally I'm not really buying what either side are saying.

 

I wonder if the Armenia announcement today in Germany will affect how much of a cooperative EU member Turkey will be? Turkey have already this evening done what Basil Fawlty told us not to and mentioned the war.

 

Couple that with Turkeys rumoured dealings with IS I wonder how helpful they'll be as a security partner in the EU.

 

/QUOTE]

 

Not much better than the Germans were at telling the French the Belgian bombers were upto no good in Paris when they had intelligence prior to the mass shootings.

[imi]

Listened to Alex salmond and IDS on LBC yesterday - worth listening to, to me it seemed like Alex salmond was way over his depth on the topic of brexit and was resorting to personal attacks as a sign of desperation...

 

IDS put forward some very strong points for brexit starting off by explaining the 367M per week EU fund of the UK

 

 

 

[Wez]

Not sure if this has already been posted but it should really be shown on TV, no chance though.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYqzcqDtL3k

 

Also the Cameron interview / debate on Sky.

 

[video=youtube;0BFSJRH1q-A]

[stevie_b]

IDS put forward some very strong points for brexit starting off by explaining the 367M per week EU fund of the UK

He should also have mentioned the flow of money the other way, but I wonder if he did? We're still a net contributor (not a net receiver) to the EU, but it's much less than 367m.

 

All the politicians have an axe to grind, and they'll spin the statistics to suit them.

[Multics]

I've been watching this thread for a little while...

 

I personally can't see Turkey joining any time soon. And I don't buy the argument that EU countries can't veto Turkey's accession application, it's a fundamental right. There are too many issues to "fix" in and around Turkey before it can be remotely considered to join (ie: Northern Cyprus, Kurdistan, human rights, freedom of press, even the recognition of the Armenian genocide etc etc). The elephant in the room that nobody mentions: It's a muslim country and the fact that Turkey sees itself as secular is BS. I don't think Austria, Cyprus, France, Greece and many other EU countries will give up their right to veto so soon... It's a non-issue, period.

 

There are valid arguments on both sides. However some Leave arguments like the one I mentioned above is just a spin and a very bad one.

 

People wanting to come out because the block's economy is slow are a bit delusional IMO No need for knee-jerk reactions. Economies' pace of growth vary, this is Europe, not China, we cannot be China. So I think there's a certain level of pragmatism, commitment and loyalty that is required here. Absolutely none (from both camps) can say with any level of certainty what will happen to our economy ( and Eurozone's economy too, which directly affects us) if we leave.

 

The argument that we should invest the 350M we pay every week into the EU back into the UK is the funniest one of all IMO. There is absolutely no way of knowing how much money would be left to invest at all if the economy takes a massive hit which it will if we leave. People asked if the housing market will suffer if we leave. Of course it will, actually it might come to its senses because it's a bubble and it's good time it bursts. So yes, young people might be able to buy a house cheaper but they'll need a job to pay the mortgage with. Will they have a "good" job if we end up having a bad deal with our neighbours?

 

I believe if we leave we'll have a long and relatively painful recession here, renegotiation of trade arrangements will be largely on EU terms to make a good example and deter any other euroskeptic governments from offering IN-OUT referendums. And ultimately, the ones that will pay the price is the working class that wanted OUT in the first place.

 

I don't think I'm being scare-mongered by the pro-EU campaign, the EU needs to change but not by leaving it.

 

I can't vote anyway so there's nothing I can do other than watch and brace, brace, brace.

[Al Massey]

I've been watching this thread for a little while...

 

I personally can't see Turkey joining any time soon. And I don't buy the argument that EU countries can't veto Turkey's accession application, it's a fundamental right. There are too many issues to "fix" in and around Turkey before it can be remotely considered to join (ie: Northern Cyprus, Kurdistan, human rights, freedom of press, even the recognition of the Armenian genocide etc etc). The elephant in the room that nobody mentions: It's a muslim country and the fact that Turkey sees itself as secular is BS. I don't think Austria, Cyprus, France, Greece and many other EU countries will give up their right to veto so soon... It's a non-issue, period.

 

There are valid arguments on both sides. However some Leave arguments like the one I mentioned above is just a spin and a very bad one.

 

People wanting to come out because the block's economy is slow are a bit delusional IMO No need for knee-jerk reactions. Economies' pace of growth vary, this is Europe, not China, we cannot be China. So I think there's a certain level of pragmatism, commitment and loyalty that is required here. Absolutely none (from both camps) can say with any level of certainty what will happen to our economy ( and Eurozone's economy too, which directly affects us) if we leave.

 

The argument that we should invest the 350M we pay every week into the EU back into the UK is the funniest one of all IMO. There is absolutely no way of knowing how much money would be left to invest at all if the economy takes a massive hit which it will if we leave. People asked if the housing market will suffer if we leave. Of course it will, actually it might come to its senses because it's a bubble and it's good time it bursts. So yes, young people might be able to buy a house cheaper but they'll need a job to pay the mortgage with. Will they have a "good" job if we end up having a bad deal with our neighbours?

 

I believe if we leave we'll have a long and relatively painful recession here, renegotiation of trade arrangements will be largely on EU terms to make a good example and deter any other euroskeptic governments from offering IN-OUT referendums. And ultimately, the ones that will pay the price is the working class that wanted OUT in the first place.

 

I don't think I'm being scare-mongered by the pro-EU campaign, the EU needs to change but not by leaving it.

 

I can't vote anyway so there's nothing I can do other than watch and brace, brace, brace.

 

You just said

"Absolutely none (from both camps) can say with any level of certainty what will happen to our economy ( and Eurozone's economy too, which directly affects us) if we leave"

 

Then went on to say

"if the economy takes a massive hit which it will if we leave"

 

That contradicts itself mate.

 

Housing bubble will burst of we are in or out, it's a matter of time.

 

I think it's naive to suggest good jobs or any jobs will be lost if we leave.

 

Look at how many jobs are gone or going since we've been in.

And look at what is happening currently.

BHS is one.

 

We've had recessions whilst we have been in the EU, no doubt another one will happen even if we remain.

 

I don't understand why people think the EU will make an example of us if we leave.

They rely on us quite a lot, so any example they make of us will affect them just as much if not more surely?

 

And as you mentioned the working class, they don't have good jobs as a whole as it is anyway.

 

And being in the EU is obviously affecting the working class, just the upper classes don't seem to either see it or care.

Which must make you think that something is wrong with the current situation.

 

And I think it's absurd to say we're are in a better position to change things if we are in.

If that was the case, it would have been changed already.

Our reforms would already be agreed to and implemented.

The EU would have done everything to keep us in.

 

But why hasn't those been sorted and done?

[Kendo11]

He should also have mentioned the flow of money the other way, but I wonder if he did? We're still a net contributor (not a net receiver) to the EU, but it's much less than 367m.

 

All the politicians have an axe to grind, and they'll spin the statistics to suit them.

Mystified that figure keeps getting banded about.

 

 

[Pete]

Haven't the Swiss people just rejected mass immigration in a referendum? From what I gather, the politicians haven't acted on it yet, but they have to within the next year or so.

 

 

If they reject one part of the agreement, then it all becomes void. I guess it depends who has the biggest balls to carry that through.

[Multics]

You just said

"Absolutely none (from both camps) can say with any level of certainty what will happen to our economy ( and Eurozone's economy too, which directly affects us) if we leave"

 

Then went on to say

"if the economy takes a massive hit which it will if we leave"

 

That contradicts itself mate.

 

Housing bubble will burst of we are in or out, it's a matter of time.

 

I think it's naive to suggest good jobs or any jobs will be lost if we leave.

 

Look at how many jobs are gone or going since we've been in.

And look at what is happening currently.

BHS is one.

 

We've had recessions whilst we have been in the EU, no doubt another one will happen even if we remain.

 

I don't understand why people think the EU will make an example of us if we leave.

They rely on us quite a lot, so any example they make of us will affect them just as much if not more surely?

 

And as you mentioned the working class, they don't have good jobs as a whole as it is anyway.

 

And being in the EU is obviously affecting the working class, just the upper classes don't seem to either see it or care.

Which must make you think that something is wrong with the current situation.

 

And I think it's absurd to say we're are in a better position to change things if we are in.

If that was the case, it would have been changed already.

Our reforms would already be agreed to and implemented.

The EU would have done everything to keep us in.

 

But why hasn't those been sorted and done?

 

The statements I made regarding the recession are not contradictory. I personally think that there will be a recession and massive job losses despite the unfounded assurances of the Leave group.

 

I believe the housing market will burst much sooner if we get out. Another crappy argument we keep hearing from OUT campaigners is that housing shortage is mainly due to immigration. It is certainly linked but it's only a tiny part of the truth. Most low-skilled, low-paid Europeans rent and can't afford to buy.

 

Well I think the EU will want to avoid crumbling up. So it's not difficult to understand why it would be very harsh on its negotiations with the UK when if we leave. That would certainly deter others from wanting to leave, no? I'm sure you've seen the Eurogroup's stance on Greece and its debts, they've made a very good example of it to other Eurozone countries, there's no escape from previous commitments, no room for negotiation.

 

Lastly, of course you're in a better position to suggest and encourage change from within. It will take time but the UK is not the only country willing to change the EU. Why not form alliances within the group to put our point across? Leaving would be a miscalculated knee-jerk reaction. If the average Joe is convinced that he's being lied at and knows better than most prominent economists and think-tanks then fine. I wouldn't be ready to risk what we have for a totally utopian fabrication.

[Pete]

But it's something I believe is right for my son and not for me right now.

 

This vote isn't for now, or next year or even 5 years.

It's for the future of our country and our children and grandchildren

There in lies the difference between us.

I have no kids or plans to have them. Call me selfish, but I couldn't give a crap about the next generation. I'm only interested in living out the rest of my days in relative comfort.

[Pete]

How on Earth can you blame BHS on the EU?

Do you just have a template with in it?

 

My tomatoes didn't ripen last year. EU's fault.