j_jza80 Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 Lets look at THEM? Suppose we shut the doors on legal law-abiding tax paying immigrants. Who will be doing the jobs that they do? Lets look at low level jobs (e.g: supermarket, coffee shops, retail) OR in the NHS (cleaners, admin, nurses, etc) OR in the council (Rubbish collectors, etc) OR in the Building Trade - where you struggle to find a white brit today (London inc Greater London) - I don't for one minute believe that by expelling law abiding immigrants there will be a sea of white brits moving in to take those positions. We have lived a comfortable life due to the "immigrants" doing the jobs that are not good enough for us. Back to your point about welfare - the system cannot sustain supporting people who DO NOT pay into the system (exc disabled) regardless of whether they are immigrants or not - Time for major overhaul in all our institutions starting with a fee based NHS. Basic supply and demand economics. If a job is unpopular for any reason in a Labour market with limited supply, the wages and other benefits of said job have to increase to a point where it becomes attractive. Of course this is also influenced by benefits, which pushes this up further, but the oversupply of labour is having a very damaging effect. If Starbucks and McDonald's started paying £15 an hour, I think you would fund those jobs would soon become very popular. Just look what happened with the bin men (and milk men and posties to a lesser extent) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 Why is it that white Brits choose to sit at home and be on the dole rather than work at McDonald's today? If McDonald's started paying 15ph for flipping burgers then the cost would be passed over to the consumer - guess who loses out in the end... If we are to compete at a global stage then we need to be realistic about our expectations some Brits believe that they have a right to a state funded silver spoon for simply existing..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 Disagree with your comment about over supply of labour - that isn't true for the sectors that I highlighted above - there is a shortage of labour due to the state funded silver spoon (labour govt) mentally & the legal immigrants are plugging that hole for us to enjoy our kushti lifestyle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Massey Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 Imi whilst I agree that Brits have become a custom to lasting about and not doing those jobs, you'll also find that those jobs pay the minimum, which many Brits can't live on. Many of those jobs are zero hour contracts, shift work so as not to give up to many hours. And they have become minimum wage and zero hour contracts because many immigrants were happy to work at that. There was a time an employer had to apply to hire immigrants, that usually happened when there wasn't enough interest in the job, so it was advertised elsewhere. Now if the mass immigration were to disappear, no more cheap labour you could effectively screw over, who is left to employ? Brits, but you would need to start making the job appealing. Doesn't mean that cost has to be placed into the consumer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 Only so much of the cost can be passed on, plus you have to take economies of scale into account too. The only reason these jobs pay low wages is because there are people who will do them for low wages. As I said, benefits do have an impact on that, but it still doesn't stop my original statement from being true. There may not be an over supply of labour in your industry, but in general it is true. Why else can employers expect degree level candidates for entry level corporate jobs these days? In the past, these positions would have been filled by school leavers with either gcse or a levels. Also looking at other national issues highlights the source of the problem: NHS waiting times, housing costs, school places, gridlocked roads etc: an imbalance of supply and demand, caused by a relatively sudden mass increase in population size. (almost 1m extra people every 3 years, generally fairly young working age) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 Imi whilst I agree that Brits have become a custom to lasting about and not doing those jobs, you'll also find that those jobs pay the minimum, which many Brits can't live on. They are low paid jobs for a reason - unskilled labour - . If Brits choose not to go for these jobs then what exactly is it that they are doing with their time & how are they surviving? Goes back to the point I made earlier - we need a reality check and to adjust our expectations. Nurses & Teachers & Doctors don't get paid min wage - again - don't see a lot of White brits queuing up for these jobs either. They are mainly Brit Asians or immigrants that fill these roles too? You want to get paid then skill up and have something worth offering to justify that high wage - the days of handouts are numbered. Very rich to blame the immigrants (legal law abiding and tax paying) for all OUR self created problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 There may not be an over supply of labour in your industry, but in general it is true. Why else can employers expect degree level candidates for entry level corporate jobs these days? In the past, these positions would have been filled by school leavers with either gcse or a levels. you're not going to offer entry level jobs to students who can't communicate properly - both verbally or written. Employers have a reputation to upkeep. Some people still seem to have this misconstrued perception that they have the right to services & jobs because of what their ancestors did - the question is what is it that THEY as an individual have to offer - it's very clear that young brits are not capable of competing anymore and are being left behind. I'm glad we don't have a system of favouritism like in Saudi where it is mandatory to employ locals in senior positions regardless of their capabilities. Here it is a level playing field - if you are good you get the job - if not then bugger off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 You can't have a system which you seem to be championing of an effectively 'survival of the fittest' jobs system, without either having a huge welfare state or deporting British nationals. Which is it? We're supposed to be a society, above such elitism. The problem is that people aspire to horde as much wealth for themselves as possible, and people in pretty menial jobs like recruitment, IT, sales, management etc are paid more than valuable members of society like nurses, soldiers, policemen, firemen, teachers etc. I wish there was more of a mindset of what people's obligations are to British society rather than what they can take from it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 Back to your point about welfare - the system cannot sustain supporting people who DO NOT pay into the system (exc disabled) Why are we excluding the disabled? Lazy bunch of feckless layabouts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Massey Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 They are low paid jobs for a reason - unskilled labour - . If Brits choose not to go for these jobs then what exactly is it that they are doing with their time & how are they surviving? Goes back to the point I made earlier - we need a reality check and to adjust our expectations. Nurses & Teachers & Doctors don't get paid min wage - again - don't see a lot of White brits queuing up for these jobs either. They are mainly Brit Asians or immigrants that fill these roles too? You want to get paid then skill up and have something worth offering to justify that high wage - the days of handouts are numbered. Very rich to blame the immigrants (legal law abiding and tax paying) for all OUR self created problems. They were low paid jobs but used to be more then minimum wage. Skill up for what when now employers are paying less and less in wages? As I stated earlier, before I left the army, managerial jobs were averaging around £27k. When I left, managerial jobs were average £22k, now many are averaging £19k. Someone offered me a managers position and wanted to pay me £18k a year That's a piss take. And you'll find the main reason why not many Brits go for nurses and doctors positions because it costs them an arm and a leg to study for years and years, to then start on pittance for a few years. It's not worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 They were low paid jobs but used to be more then minimum wage. You missed my point - the jobs that immigrants are doing are beneath the non-immigrants - the pay of these jobs has always been min wage. your are not going to get 15ph for flippin burgers. And you'll find the main reason why not many Brits go for nurses and doctors positions because it costs them an arm and a leg to study for years and years, to then start on pittance for a few years. It's not worth it. Again - you missed the point - when I look at the NHS even at the lower level - it is run by Brit Asians & immigrants. It's not worth it. Obviously not when you at it from your lens - the alternative is to be a parasite on the nation - plenty of those around - worse still - they have an attitude..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annabella Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 Lets look at THEM? Suppose we shut the doors on legal law-abiding tax paying immigrants. Who will be doing the jobs that they do? Lets look at low level jobs (e.g: supermarket, coffee shops, retail) OR in the NHS (cleaners, admin, nurses, etc) OR in the council (Rubbish collectors, etc) OR in the Building Trade - where you struggle to find a white brit today (London inc Greater London) - I don't for one minute believe that by expelling law abiding immigrants there will be a sea of white brits moving in to take those positions. We have lived a comfortable life due to the "immigrants" doing the jobs that are not good enough for us. Back to your point about welfare - the system cannot sustain supporting people who DO NOT pay into the system (exc disabled) regardless of whether they are immigrants or not - Time for major overhaul in all our institutions starting with a fee based NHS. Please don't put words into my mouth. I didn't mention expelling immigrants ala Nazi style. And I didn't say 'shut the doors' just like that as you cannot, there has always been immigration here, just not at this ridiculous rate. The rate of immigration at the moment is unsustainable. The roads, infrastructure, police are all beyond capacity right now and have been for quite some time. If we have a points type system ala Oz, that would help. If there are less people to do the lower paid jobs, they become better paid. The Docs, and nurses are foreign, as you say, because the doctors in hospitals get such tough, changing work conditions, stress, stupidly long hours that a lot of them wish to train here then leave. I wouldn't want to be treated by a junior doctor on his/her 58th hour, or 11th hour shift. That's why 'immigrants' are filling these posts. If there are less immigrants then the working conditions have to be improved to fill the vacancies. Welfare is a difficult one to police, but adding more to it doesn't make sense does it? Yes there will always be career dolies, but that's a different subject. Fee based NHS, isn't an NHS is it. Health care for everyone in the Nation is what it means, how does a fee help? Lets have a fee for police and fire too, oh I forget thats the council tax. Oh yeah the fee for the NHS is the income tax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Massey Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 You missed my point - the jobs that immigrants are doing are beneath the non-immigrants - the pay of these jobs has always been min wage. your are not going to get 15ph for flippin burgers. Again - you missed the point - when I look at the NHS even at the lower level - it is run by Brit Asians & immigrants. Obviously not when you at it from your lens - the alternative is to be a parasite on the nation - plenty of those around - worse still - they have an attitude..... I didn't miss your point. Those jobs haven't always been min wage. I know someone who used to make a great living doing cleaning jobs. It may be beneath some, but wasn't always about the money. And look where most of those Brit Asians and immigrants got their education and how it was paid for. The average British family on average wage can not afford university and can not get the grants and benefits to send their child to university. The reason why loads of people are parasites on the country is because they are better off then working. And to be honest, I used to hate them, but since my son was born, it would actually make sense for me to quit work and claim benefits then pay for child care as its stupid money. And quite frankly, after what I have done and lost for my country, I do have a feeling that I am owed something. Again I'll refer to manager jobs, where that pay is declining, supervisor pay is exactly the same as the workers. So what benefit would someone have to better themselves or take on responsibility if you're not going to get the recognition and pay you deserve. And it's not all down to the recession, it's because employers are getting cheap labour. Look at distribution warehouses. That used to be a good wage. No it's crap, and look what's happening to people's parcels. Pay your workers crap money, then they won't work to their full potential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 Don't get me started on junior doctors - obviously people have little idea of how they used to train say 30 years ago vs now. They have it much easier and like the tube drivers, bus drivers, fire fighters, teachers etc they have the audacity to hold the country at random for their greed. And we don't have a NHS its the international HS - open to abuse by "patients", managers, contractors - it's inefficient and ride for corruption at multiple levels. Sad to see that a majority seem to have an attitude that the country owes them something and are quite prepared to suck the country dry. At the end of the day it isn't sustainable, isn't moral and major reforms are needed overall - the 5 year govt term is a handicap and doesn't allow major reforms that are desperately needed to help evolve the country with changing times to be competitive at a global level. Back on topic - I sincerely hope we pull out of the EU and take control of our own affairs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Massey Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 Sad to see that a majority seem to have an attitude that the country owes them something and are quite prepared to suck the country dry. At the end of the day it isn't sustainable, isn't moral and major reforms are needed overall - the 5 year govt term is a handicap and doesn't allow major reforms that are desperately needed to help evolve the country with changing times to be competitive at a global level. Back on topic - I sincerely hope we pull out of the EU and take control of our own affairs. I'd say some people are owed something by their country and deserve it too. But I do agree there are many spunk buckets who feel they are owed everything even though they didn't finish school! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 Seems the Canadians are also very worried about immigration : The flood of Trump-fearing American liberals sneaking across the border into Canada has intensified in the past week, sparking calls for increased patrols to stop the illegal immigration. The Republican Presidential primary campaign is prompting an exodus among left leaning citizens who fear they'll soon be required to hunt, pray, and live according to conservative ideas about the Constitution. Canadian border farmers say it's not uncommon to see dozens of sociology professors, global warming activists, and "green" energy proponents crossing their fields at night. "I went out to milk the cows the other day, and there was a Hollywood producer huddled in the barn," said Southern Manitoba farmer Red Greenfield, whose acreage borders North Dakota. “The producer was cold, exhausted and hungry. He asked me if I could spare a latte and some free-range chicken. When I said I didn't have any, he left before I even got a chance to show him my screenplay, eh?" In an effort to stop the illegal aliens, Greenfield erected higher fences, but the liberals scaled them. He then installed loudspeakers that blared Rush Limbaugh across the fields, but they just keep coming. Officials are particularly concerned about smugglers who meet liberals near the Canadian border, pack them into electric cars and drive them across the border where they are simply left to fend for themselves after the battery dies. "A lot of these people are not prepared for our rugged conditions," an Ontario border patrolman said. "I found one carload without a single bottle of Perrier drinking water. They did have a nice little Napa Valley cabernet, though, and some kale chips." When liberals are caught, they're sent back across the border, often wailing loudly that they fear assassination from Trump high hairers. Rumors have been circulating about plans being made to build re-education camps where liberals will be forced to drink domestic beer and study the Constitution. In recent days, liberals have turned to ingenious ways of crossing the border. Some have been disguised as senior citizens taking a bus trip to buy cheap Canadian prescription drugs. After catching a half- dozen young vegans in blue-hair wig disguises, Canadian immigration authorities began stopping buses and quizzing the supposed senior citizens about Perry Como and Rosemary Clooney to prove that they were alive in the '50s. "If they can't identify the accordion player on The Lawrence Welk Show, we become very suspicious about their age," an official said. Canadian citizens have complained that the illegal immigrants are creating an organic-broccoli shortage, buying up all the Barbara Streisand c.d.'s, and renting all the Michael Moore movies. "I really feel sorry for American liberals, but the Canadian economy just can't support them," an Ottawa resident said. "How many art-history majors does one country need?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David P Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 Those same Canadian farmers grew a profitable crop of tobacco until the Canadian Liberals put a stop to it and now have the American Liberals trampling over their peanuts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 Had to read this several times this morning, I had a terrible fear my abstaining from the ale for 2 days had done irreparable damage to my mind, but no, it seems European madness and Liberalism really does know no bounds: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3517493/At-FIFTY-ISIS-supporters-working-baggage-handlers-cleaners-catering-staff-Brussels-airport-claim-police.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annabella Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 Had to read this several times this morning, I had a terrible fear my abstaining from the ale for 2 days had done irreparable damage to my mind, but no, it seems European madness and Liberalism really does know no bounds: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3517493/At-FIFTY-ISIS-supporters-working-baggage-handlers-cleaners-catering-staff-Brussels-airport-claim-police.html Had to check the orignal date of the article to check wasn't an April fool. Beggars belief, that single article blows the Ins arguements that our security is better together. Inept keystone republic security. You start to wonder if the attacks were allowed to happen to advance an unknown agenda? As in panic UK into staying in the EU? Encourage a bigger wider war in the middle east to sell more weapons? Can it just be plain stupidity? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie_b Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 Had to check the orignal date of the article to check wasn't an April fool. Beggars belief, that single article blows the Ins arguements that our security is better together. Inept keystone republic security. You start to wonder if the attacks were allowed to happen to advance an unknown agenda? As in panic UK into staying in the EU? Encourage a bigger wider war in the middle east to sell more weapons? Can it just be plain stupidity? Seems unlikely: the effect on UK public opinion of the terror attack could go either way. It could push as many people to vote Leave as to vote Stay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annabella Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 Yes, I was just plucking thoughts from the air as to why the things were so lax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formatzero Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 Were all doomed captain Doomed I say !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendo11 Posted April 2, 2016 Share Posted April 2, 2016 Had to read this several times this morning, I had a terrible fear my abstaining from the ale for 2 days had done irreparable damage to my mind, but no, it seems European madness and Liberalism really does know no bounds: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3517493/At-FIFTY-ISIS-supporters-working-baggage-handlers-cleaners-catering-staff-Brussels-airport-claim-police.html You'd be even more alarmed to know that the Belgian press (in particular one well regarded journalist and expert on extremism in Belgium) reported this as early as February 2015. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted April 2, 2016 Share Posted April 2, 2016 Don't worry, they have a plan to stop all of this... Belgium to require immigrants to sign up to european values FML. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted April 2, 2016 Share Posted April 2, 2016 Had to read this several times this morning, I had a terrible fear my abstaining from the ale for 2 days had done irreparable damage to my mind, but no, it seems European madness and Liberalism really does know no bounds: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3517493/At-FIFTY-ISIS-supporters-working-baggage-handlers-cleaners-catering-staff-Brussels-airport-claim-police.html I can't read that. Daily Mail is blocked by my Internet sanity filter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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