Europe

[j_jza80]

I agree with what you've said there Al, the labour market is saturated, and mass immigration is definitely a contributory factor. It isn't the fault of immigrants, and I think it's important to make that distinction, it is the fault of market forces. Businesses naturally don't pay any more than they think they need to, and when they don't have to compete for staff, there's no reason to increase wages.

 

I used to be in the building industry, it paid well but it was long hours, 5.5 days a week and was both mentally and physically challenging. You could expect a starting salary of about £20k-25k in this area, plus bonus, for 55 hours a week plus unpaid overtime.

 

Now these companies pay absolute peanuts and expect the same hours, and I'm sure it won't be lost on those of you who have some experience of that industry (Ken) that these companies are using a lot of Eastern European staff. The cause of these suppressed wages was initially the recession, which had a devastating impact on the industry, but unscrupulous employers now realise they can get away with it. And while we have an open labour market, why would they change? Forcing them to increase their wages will simply encourage more migration and exacerbate the issue.

 

I'm sure this goes for all sorts of industries.

 

Like I said, I'm not using immigration or immigrants as a scape goat. They are just doing what any of us would do. The EU is effectively letting poorer nations offshore their unemployment figures.

 

The only rational solution would be an EU wide minimum wage, but the capitalist lobbyists in Westminster and Brussels would never allow that.

[natony]

Immigration is, in my opinion, and from talking to many different people, the main reason they want the UK out of Europe. The average person doesn't really care that much if big or medium sized businesses make less money if we come out of the EU, many would happily tolerate a loss in their own earnings. They see the current porous EU borders as a threat to their lifestyle, their services and their house prices, they the EU as leveraging us to take these people, bombarding our social conscience at every step, yet having no answer to how this influx can be managed, financed or integrated. As DNK said, we are unable to properly support the current UK population, hospitals and GP's claim they are already on a knife edge, people claim they need the services of food banks to survive (and, in fairness, to simultaneously keep up with the latest Iphones and their Sky subs and cigarette habit...), the government is in a state of serious deficit, blah blah.

 

The out supporters can see no gains from staying in, only a further weakening of our rights and sovereignty. Given the TV pictures of rioting economic migrants making a total mockery of border controls across most of Europe, they fear the worse. They feel our government is weak, that of the EU hierachy even weaker, and wanting to pressurise us into taking these people aboard. Few see any benefit from these people being allowed into the UK, most see totally negative things. An increase in crime, a loss of further jobs, a watering down of their historic conventions and ways of life. A capitulation due to rampant political correctness to town centres looking like Muslim cities with huge Mosques granted planning permission, often running rings around normal planning constraints. They see ghettos forming with none English speaking, strangely robed foreigners, shunning them on their forefathers streets, often openly hating them, yet taking the allowances paid for by the UK taxpayer, and raping the UK for all they can.

 

People speak of the financial implications of leaving the EU, and there may be some. But many people put a higher value on their way of life, and how that way of life is changing ever more quickly. Those with children and grand children foresee staying in the EU impacting them more negatively than any realistically likely financial hardship. Many are even afraid of voicing their fears due to the bullying "RACIST" brigade, claiming any worry about immigrant numbers, maintaining our sovereignty or our "Englishness" is a direct affront to racial harmony and an admission to be a neo Nazi.

 

On a personal level I would happily have somewhat less spare cash and a horizon of English church spires, rather than more enclaves of none English speaking, tribal, none British aspirational, grasping ethnics with all their social and architectural baggage.

 

Get us the hell out of this mad, failed experiment

 

Extremely well said, I think you knocked the nail squarely on the head.

[Kendo11]

When I first considered leaving the army many years ago, I was looking at managers wages and they were paying a lot more than I was on in the army at the time.

 

When I first got out after redundancy, managers wages were still desirable and still over the £25k a year mark.

 

Last week whilst I was searching other jobs in my matched criteria, the same jobs and types of jobs are only paying £19-£21k a year.

 

And looking the people/workers I'd be managing, they are all unskilled workers on minimum wage.

 

My mum who worked at asda for years had a better starting wage then than what they are paying new starters now.

 

Yet, it should be the other way around due to inflation.

That's not the case, wages are getting pushed down to the minimum allowed, zero hour contracts and longer probation periods.

All to maximise profit and minimise the spend on wages.

 

It's utter bullshit.

 

I can only speak from personal experience mate, my wage has gone up every year. I'm currently an assistant manager and I'm on very late 20s, our branch manager is on mid 30s. That's the case for a lot of branches in our group. It does vary area to area, industry to industry but my wage has gone up dramatically since I started with my group around 8 years ago.

 

Absolutely agree 110% on the zero hours thing, those types of contracts are a disgrace.

 

But going back even further to when I was a 20 year old running a few bars, the Europeans we had would work 70/80 hour weeks doing the crap jobs for minimum wage and didn't complain once. I know of a lot of English youths at the time who wouldn't do the job or would expect breaks every hour etc etc.

 

Again though I know it varies area to area.

[Kendo11]

Things will change if we leave the EU - yes - I very much hope so.

But there is no reason to think that any changes would be a bad thing - after all it would be the UK government making the changes, not the EU.

It would therefore be the UK people 'controlling' the changes (via democracy and your government term election vote), and not a bunch of un-elected bureaucrats from the EU that don't have the UK's interests near the top of their list.

The "grey area" would surely be more applicable to staying 'in' the EU.

 

Put it another way - if we were currently out of the EU and voting to go 'in'. We would currently have a fully accountable government with full control over the UK's affairs, with a 'prospect' of voting in to a system whereby we give up the majority of our sovereignty and give control of new laws to people that we have no control over.

Its surely a 'no-brainer' which option gives the most 'grey area'

 

 

But I understand what you are saying, it is this 'unknown' that is being turned in to "campaign fear" by the "in group".

 

Very well put.

 

For what it's worth I will probably vote out but for different reasons, I do want to look into the pros and cons a bit more though.

[imi]

The cheaper the better for me to employ people.

 

Exactly - why would an employer care whether the employee is british or not as long as they can hire someone at the most competitive rate (assuming that is the only driver - which is most probably isn't) - open market dynamics in play here

[imi]

Other than immigration the bigger and more critical issue is security - and frankly speaking I am not convinced that being in the EU provides us with adequate security for our population - I rather the UK control its borders and its own affairs like it did for many hundreds of years prior to the inception of the EU 20 years ago - the EU is a failed experiment.

 

 

What has happened in Brussels today just highlights the endemic home grown terrorism issue that exists within Europe (and also the UK) - it is perhaps a clash of ideologies that is being played out in the most brutal way.

[Pete]

What has happened in Brussels today just highlights the endemic home grown terrorism issue that exists within Europe (and also the UK) - it is perhaps a clash of ideologies that is being played out in the most brutal way.

 

Yes - sadly today will have won a lot more votes to the "No" camp.

[Chris Wilson]

And Mr Trump won't have suffered any vote losses from this.

[AJI]

Pete - Yes, I agree. Although its the only positive aspect one can take from such an event.

 

The main issues being hugely more complex including things like American foreign policy, Isreal, total lack of EU action in the early days of the migrant movement, poking the Russian bear, western support for the Arab spring and the desire for regime change, western dogmatic approach to removing Assad, western support for Saudi Arabia, Turkey's support of ISIS and their stirring of the region, Merkel's open invitation/free pass for all the middle-east to come and live in Europe....etc. etc. etc. The list of 'wrongs' goes on and on, to the point of absolute farcical.

 

I think a lot needs to be looked at before Europe can think it is safe, and a few Cobra meetings and a few extra police out and about is not going to change anything.

The whole approach of setting off a bomb in a crowded area is so simplistically effective that it doesn't really matter what extra measures the politicians approve, until ALL the migrants are processed, with the bogus ones removed and also with so called 'home grown' extremists also deported, along with all the above list of 'wrongs' sorted out, I don't think it will ever be much different than today or yesterday.

 

But one thing to bear in mind is context. These cowardly bomb tactics can only kill a 'few' at a time. They may raise fear and destroy infrastructure for a short while but the goal of the terrorist will never been reached. Western society and its grip on freedom will never bow to an ideology such as ISIS.

[Dnk]

One here the out vote was pretty conclusive before these latest atrocities

[Chris Wilson]

People ask what will change, migrant wise, should we vote to leave the EU? They cite that we are not signatories of the Schengen agreement.

 

Once the plethora of migrants are granted EU papers and passports, after a few short years, (and whoever they may claim to be "family members are also, in turn granted them, and short of DNA testing them, who knows if they are lying to earn a few quid as impromptu people smugglers...?), they will be free to travel to EU member countries unfettered.

 

That to me is more than enough reason to vote OUT. And to those that say many of these terrorist actions have been carried out by people born in Europe, I say a lion bred in a safari park is just as dangerous as one borne in the Serengeti Their birthplace may change, their ideology remains similar. IS has openly boasted of using the migrant "crisis" to embed jihadists into Europe. In all likelihood their EU passport holding offspring will also become jihadists.

[Pete]

One here the out vote was pretty conclusive before these latest atrocities

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying there, but previous the Guardian link suggested it wasn't conclusive for the country.

[Pete]

People ask what will change, migrant wise, should we vote to leave the EU? They cite that we are not signatories of the Schengen agreement.

Even if a leave vote wins - nothing will happen over night immigration wise. We don't suddenly regain control over our borders, drop our existing EU agreements etc. It'll take years for reforms to happen.

The terrorist threat is immediate and now - so don't anyone think voting out will help lessen that threat in the short term.

 

I was speaking to a financial expert last night who had some interesting views. His opinion was if we vote to leave the rest will go like dominos.

This on top of the already totally messed up economies means we all could be in for a VERY rocky ride here financially. I hope you've all got your mortgages and loans in check - because if you're on the edge with no disposable income or savings - you're f'ked.

 

Back to buying some guns and stockpiling Fry and Bentos pies then?

[j_jza80]

I think it's pretty conclusive when you look at particular aspects.

 

Look how poor voter turnout is at EU parliamentary elections. Most people don't know who their MEP is, and frankly most don't care. This is surely an indicator of the huge uphill struggle the remain campaigns have.

 

People who want to leave are going to be much more motivated to vote. Coupled with the huge demographic advantage that the biggest proponents of leaving are also the ones who turnout to vote (the elderly), I just don't see how the remain groups are going to motivate people to vote in the numbers needed.

[Annabella]

Even if a leave vote wins - nothing will happen over night immigration wise. We don't suddenly regain control over our borders, drop our existing EU agreements etc. It'll take years for reforms to happen.

The terrorist threat is immediate and now - so don't anyone think voting out will help lessen that threat in the short term.

 

I was speaking to a financial expert last night who had some interesting views. His opinion was if we vote to leave the rest will go like dominos.

This on top of the already totally messed up economies means we all could be in for a VERY rocky ride here financially. I hope you've all got your mortgages and loans in check - because if you're on the edge with no disposable income or savings - you're f'ked.

 

Back to buying some guns and stockpiling Fry and Bentos pies then?

 

Yes it isn't going to happen overnight, but at least things will change. Being in Europe, border control etc cannot change because we're not allowed to and Cameron's latest negotiations were useless watered down tosh. If we stay in, in ten years another potential 3.3million imigrants will be here, based on last years net figure. If we're out we have a much better chance of curtailing that. It's not just the terrorist issue with the migrants it's the watering down of our culture, we haven't got the infrastructure to support this, roads, schools, hospitals, rail network, we haven't got the welfare system to support them. Its not rocket science.

[Chris Wilson]

Yes it isn't going to happen overnight, but at least things will change. Being in Europe, border control etc cannot change because we're not allowed to and Cameron's latest negotiations were useless watered down tosh. If we stay in, in ten years another potential 3.3million imigrants will be here, based on last years net figure. If we're out we have a much better chance of curtailing that. It's not just the terrorist issue with the migrants it's the watering down of our culture, we haven't got the infrastructure to support this, roads, schools, hospitals, rail network, we haven't got the welfare system to support them. Its not rocket science.

 

Thank you. I agree 100% . We are being fed rubbish, and I fear for the English with grandchildren.

[Dnk]

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying there, but previous the Guardian link suggested it wasn't conclusive for the country.

 

I was just going on the numbers that have voted on here, over 76% before these latest horrific scenes in Belgium want out of the EU

 

I don't doubt it could and will be a different story when it comes to actual vote but hopefully will still be a vote to get out

[Chris Wilson]

What steps would the UK have to take to "leave" the European court of human rights? As I understand it leaving

the EU would have no bearing on our membership or whatever it's called of the ECHR.

[Kendo11]

What steps would the UK have to take to "leave" the European court of human rights? As I understand it leaving

the EU would have no bearing on our membership or whatever it's called of the ECHR.

 

That's right they are totally separate. I think there would need to be another vote, but it might be more difficult than leaving the EU.

 

Cameron said ages ago he wanted to “break the link” between the British courts and the ECHR. He also wants to scrap the Human Rights Act and replace it with a British bill of rights, and to make the Supreme Court the “ultimate arbiter” of human rights matters in the UK.

 

I think last time he mentioned leaving the ECHR people were saying that if we leave, people like Russia etc will and it'll fall or something along those lines.

[j_jza80]

According to the Guardian this morning:

 

"the European convention on human rights is not an EU agreement, it is not entirely clear what he means, although because EU states are obliged to abide by the convention, leaving the EU could make it easier for Britain to walk away from the convention too"

[Chris Wilson]

No doubt a human rights issue, what a farce, so PC, so weak, so pathetic. Marine will be frothing at the mouth, and rightly (excuse the pun) so.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35924701

[Shane]

No doubt a human rights issue, what a farce, so PC, so weak, so pathetic. Marine will be frothing at the mouth, and rightly (excuse the pun) so.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35924701

 

Its interesting isn't it, I thought that bit of legislation would fly through considering their recent experiences.

 

Enjoyed this article too:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35919068

 

Though I suspect you wouldn't like him Chris as he has tattoos.

[Chris Wilson]

I'll forgive Dinko his artwork. Cool name for a Doberman

 

 

There's a Bulgarian goes in my local, looks a lot like Dinko. Some bloke new to the area was suspected of selling drugs and this Bulgarian came to hear about it. Next time he saw this "dealer" coming into the pub he just grunted something along the lines of "Don't like the look of you"

 

The guy said "So?". The Bulgarian just said "I don't like seeing people I don't like the look of, best find another pub, consider this one off limits son...". Story goes he was shaking the guy warmly by the throat as he said it.

 

The "dealer" hasn't been seen since. Big barsteward, this Bulgarian. VERY big! In fact I don't think I've ever seen a small one...

[imi]

we haven't got the infrastructure to support this, roads, schools, hospitals, rail network, we haven't got the welfare system to support them. Its not rocket science.

 

Lets look at THEM?

 

Suppose we shut the doors on legal law-abiding tax paying immigrants.

 

Who will be doing the jobs that they do? Lets look at low level jobs (e.g: supermarket, coffee shops, retail) OR in the NHS (cleaners, admin, nurses, etc) OR in the council (Rubbish collectors, etc) OR in the Building Trade - where you struggle to find a white brit today (London inc Greater London) - I don't for one minute believe that by expelling law abiding immigrants there will be a sea of white brits moving in to take those positions. We have lived a comfortable life due to the "immigrants" doing the jobs that are not good enough for us.

 

Back to your point about welfare - the system cannot sustain supporting people who DO NOT pay into the system (exc disabled) regardless of whether they are immigrants or not - Time for major overhaul in all our institutions starting with a fee based NHS.

[imi]

Enjoyed this article too:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35919068

 

Though I suspect you wouldn't like him Chris as he has tattoos.

 

Cant disagree with him here:

 

Meanwhile, the failure of European leaders to deal with the migrant crisis is seen as "definitive proof that the European Union is a tired, wrinkled old grandmother who has allowed herself to be groped and raped by lustful and predatory men," he says.