Europe

[j_jza80]

its a real shame that the conversation keeps rotating around immigration, when it is far from being the highlighting issue of being in the EU.

 

If you read the article I posted to, it shows that overwhelmingly it is immigration which I'd people's main concern with the EU, and it is the issue on which the EU is least willing to budge.

 

It isn't the main issue for me specifically on the EU, that is democracy and accountability, and the institutionalised corruption within the EU. But it is obviously a major issue for a lot of people.

 

I just want some discussion, nationally, on what number of people this country is able to support, and seeing our elected officials take action and plan for the future in that regard.

[Kendo11]

its a real shame that the conversation keeps rotating around immigration, when it is far from being the highlighting issue of being in the EU.

 

That's because in this day and age the majority of the electorate are unable to see past Daily Mail headlines and are too submissive to the government that they are unable to see past what is being spoonfed to them.

[Dnk]

If you read the article I posted to, it shows that overwhelmingly it is immigration which I'd people's main concern with the EU, and it is the issue on which the EU is least willing to budge.

 

It isn't the main issue for me specifically on the EU, that is democracy and accountability, and the institutionalised corruption within the EU. But it is obviously a major issue for a lot of people.

 

I just want some discussion, nationally, on what number of people this country is able to support, and seeing our elected officials take action and plan for the future in that regard.

 

It doesn't appear that we can support the people that are already here

[Al Massey]

That's because in this day and age the majority of the electorate are unable to see past Daily Mail headlines and are too submissive to the government that they are unable to see past what is being spoonfed to them.

 

Or maybe that immigration is an issue, and actually a large issue.

 

When people kick off and complain about immigrants stealing our jobs, have you ever thought about the people complaining?

The majority are unskilled workers.

Due to mass immigration, a massive flux of unskilled workers have entered the UK over the years, and are more than happy to work for minimum wage.

Because the foreign workers are happy with minimum wage (since it's very high compared to back home) it's forcing British unskilled workers to either lose their jobs or find other employment.

Which then they go on benefits causing another issue.

 

All you have to do is visit places like Bradford, Birmingham or London and you can see the population of those cities.

 

It's like playing where's the white man in Bradford, and it's a hard game in certain places.

 

The problem with the term "immigration" is used too loosely to cover all aspects, where it should be broken down.

 

Skilled immigrants are very welcome, and there isn't an issue with them coming across for employment, but mass immigration of unskilled workers isn't welcome.

Especially when a lot claim child benefits for their families back home, and sending most of their money home and not contributing to the economy is an issue and unwelcome.

[AJI]

The financial world will go wherever it is cheapest for them to operate from.

 

I'd say that is partially correct, it is both the tax regime AND the profit potential in the region that they operate that will decide.

 

The term "Profit potential" meaning things that can affect the ability to make profit; such as location, currency, taxation regime, amount of government control over regulation, economy etc. etc.

[AJI]

Are there is the problem with allowing the great unwashed to vote. What a scary set of the results from opinions formed by misinformation and propaganda.

 

Welcome to the world of western democracy, the model that we (lead by the good old USofA) intend to install in to every state across the globe

 

It is a flawed model in a lot of respects but what you also point out is the importance of propaganda.

Lead by the BBC and the guardian

Admittedly not many of the 'great unwashed' will bother to read a paper, but many do stare aimlessly at the TV.

And our state broadcaster is in full swing on the reporting of horror of we dare to think of leaving the EU.

[Kendo11]

Or maybe that immigration is an issue, and actually a large issue.

 

When people kick off and complain about immigrants stealing our jobs, have you ever thought about the people complaining?

The majority are unskilled workers.

Due to mass immigration, a massive flux of unskilled workers have entered the UK over the years, and are more than happy to work for minimum wage.

Because the foreign workers are happy with minimum wage (since it's very high compared to back home) it's forcing British unskilled workers to either lose their jobs or find other employment.

Which then they go on benefits causing another issue.

 

All you have to do is visit places like Bradford, Birmingham or London and you can see the population of those cities.

 

It's like playing where's the white man in Bradford, and it's a hard game in certain places.

 

The problem with the term "immigration" is used too loosely to cover all aspects, where it should be broken down.

 

Skilled immigrants are very welcome, and there isn't an issue with them coming across for employment, but mass immigration of unskilled workers isn't welcome.

 

Especially when a lot claim child benefits for their families back home, and sending most of their money home and not contributing to the economy is an issue and unwelcome.

 

That's exactly the sort of thing that people are being spoonfed and lapping up, but there are more important things to consider.

 

Sure they might be less emotive and might look less exciting printed on a tabloid but the whole immigration argument is imo killing any sensible debate about Brexit.

 

Everyone is ignoring the possible percentage variations in GDP that could occur, the recent Russian agressive resurgence, laws being set by the EU/vice versa, international trade deals, economic repurcussions, foreign investments, expats, foreign healthcare.

 

There's potentially BILLIONS of pounds that might be gained or lost depending on how you look at it. I personally think that should be the priority.

 

Oh and if you're playing spot the white man, chances are they won't be from Europe - so that's not really anything to do with the Brexit debate.

[Al Massey]

That's exactly the sort of thing that people are being spoonfed and lapping up, but there are more important things to consider.

 

Sure they might be less emotive and might look less exciting printed on a tabloid but the whole immigration argument is imo killing any sensible debate about Brexit.

 

Everyone is ignoring the possible percentage variations in GDP that could occur, the recent Russian agressive resurgence, laws being set by the EU/vice versa, international trade deals, economic repurcussions, foreign investments, expats, foreign healthcare.

 

There's potentially BILLIONS of pounds that might be gained or lost depending on how you look at it. I personally think that should be the priority.

 

Oh and if you're playing spot the white man, chances are they won't be from Europe - so that's not really anything to do with the Brexit debate.

 

Immigration isn't just about Europe.

It's the the fact that EU laws dictate to us about immigration laws.

 

And whilst I agree that there are many other important factors about UKexit (I refuse to call it Brexit as it is the UK not Britain) immigration is still a huge factor for most of the people.

 

People will argue and vote on what affects them.

 

There's proof of that in this thread about about people wanting to stay in the EU.

They only care about themselves and not about the country or its future.

 

The same as any vote is always about selfish means and not for others.

[Chris Wilson]

Immigration is, in my opinion, and from talking to many different people, the main reason they want the UK out of Europe. The average person doesn't really care that much if big or medium sized businesses make less money if we come out of the EU, many would happily tolerate a loss in their own earnings. They see the current porous EU borders as a threat to their lifestyle, their services and their house prices, they the EU as leveraging us to take these people, bombarding our social conscience at every step, yet having no answer to how this influx can be managed, financed or integrated. As DNK said, we are unable to properly support the current UK population, hospitals and GP's claim they are already on a knife edge, people claim they need the services of food banks to survive (and, in fairness, to simultaneously keep up with the latest Iphones and their Sky subs and cigarette habit...), the government is in a state of serious deficit, blah blah.

 

The out supporters can see no gains from staying in, only a further weakening of our rights and sovereignty. Given the TV pictures of rioting economic migrants making a total mockery of border controls across most of Europe, they fear the worse. They feel our government is weak, that of the EU hierachy even weaker, and wanting to pressurise us into taking these people aboard. Few see any benefit from these people being allowed into the UK, most see totally negative things. An increase in crime, a loss of further jobs, a watering down of their historic conventions and ways of life. A capitulation due to rampant political correctness to town centres looking like Muslim cities with huge Mosques granted planning permission, often running rings around normal planning constraints. They see ghettos forming with none English speaking, strangely robed foreigners, shunning them on their forefathers streets, often openly hating them, yet taking the allowances paid for by the UK taxpayer, and raping the UK for all they can.

 

People speak of the financial implications of leaving the EU, and there may be some. But many people put a higher value on their way of life, and how that way of life is changing ever more quickly. Those with children and grand children foresee staying in the EU impacting them more negatively than any realistically likely financial hardship. Many are even afraid of voicing their fears due to the bullying "RACIST" brigade, claiming any worry about immigrant numbers, maintaining our sovereignty or our "Englishness" is a direct affront to racial harmony and an admission to be a neo Nazi.

 

On a personal level I would happily have somewhat less spare cash and a horizon of English church spires, rather than more enclaves of none English speaking, tribal, none British aspirational, grasping ethnics with all their social and architectural baggage.

 

Get us the hell out of this mad, failed experiment

[Al Massey]

Immigration is, in my opinion, and from talking to many different people, the main reason they want the UK out of Europe. The average person doesn't really care that much if big or medium sized businesses make less money if we come out of the EU, many would happily tolerate a loss in their own earnings. They see the current porous EU borders as a threat to their lifestyle, their services and their house prices, they the EU as leveraging us to take these people, bombarding our social conscience at every step, yet having no answer to how this influx can be managed, financed or integrated. As DNK said, we are unable to properly support the current UK population, hospitals and GP's claim they are already on a knife edge, people claim they need the services of food banks to survive (and, in fairness, to simultaneously keep up with the latest Iphones and their Sky subs and cigarette habit...), the government is in a state of serious deficit, blah blah.

 

The out supporters can see no gains from staying in, only a further weakening of our rights and sovereignty. Given the TV pictures of rioting economic migrants making a total mockery of border controls across most of Europe, they fear the worse. They feel our government is weak, that of the EU hierachy even weaker, and wanting to pressurise us into taking these people aboard. Few see any benefit from these people being allowed into the UK, most see totally negative things. An increase in crime, a loss of further jobs, a watering down of their historic conventions and ways of life. A capitulation due to rampant political correctness to town centres looking like Muslim cities with huge Mosques granted planning permission, often running rings around normal planning constraints. They see ghettos forming with none English speaking, strangely robed foreigners, shunning them on their forefathers streets, often openly hating them, yet taking the allowances paid for by the UK taxpayer, and raping the UK for all they can.

 

People speak of the financial implications of leaving the EU, and there may be some. But many people put a higher value on their way of life, and how that way of life is changing ever more quickly. Those with children and grand children foresee staying in the EU impacting them more negatively than any realistically likely financial hardship. Many are even afraid of voicing their fears due to the bullying "RACIST" brigade, claiming any worry about immigrant numbers, maintaining our sovereignty or our "Englishness" is a direct affront to racial harmony and an admission to be a neo Nazi.

 

On a personal level I would happily have somewhat less spare cash and a horizon of English church spires, rather than more enclaves of none English speaking, tribal, none British aspirational, grasping ethnics with all their social and architectural baggage.

 

Get us the hell out of this mad, failed experiment

 

Well said!

[Kendo11]

See previous comments re. Daily Fail

 

Some interesting points regarding the assumption that leaving the EU will be like turning off a tap for immigration: http://heindehaas.blogspot.co.uk/2015/05/will-brexit-curb-immigration.html

 

From 2015 but interesting and relevant nonetheless in terms of whether immigration should be the 'be all and end all' of the vote.

 

It would be unfortunate if one side wins the vote and 6 months down the line we are all affected by a new piece of legislation only for us to turn around and say "oh dear, I was too focused on immigration to even think of that".

 

It is a very 'grey' outcome, things will certainly change hugely if we leave. Whether it is for better or worse is the unknown element that'll be what sways the majority towards the 'in' vote I think.

[Al Massey]

See previous comments re. Daily Fail

 

Some interesting points regarding the assumption that leaving the EU will be like turning off a tap for immigration: http://heindehaas.blogspot.co.uk/2015/05/will-brexit-curb-immigration.html

 

From 2015 but interesting and relevant nonetheless in terms of whether immigration should be the 'be all and end all' of the vote.

 

It would be unfortunate if one side wins the vote and 6 months down the line we are all affected by a new piece of legislation only for us to turn around and say "oh dear, I was too focused on immigration to even think of that".

 

It is a very 'grey' outcome, things will certainly change hugely if we leave. Whether it is for better or worse is the unknown element that'll be what sways the majority towards the 'in' vote I think.

 

I don't need to read the daily fail to see why people kick up about immigration.

Regardless of where immigration falls on your list of priorities, it does fall high on others, and for very good reasons as I stated above.

 

Again, it doesn't affect you so you're not interested.

 

No one said the tap would be turned off.

It will however be allowed to be turned down, and be upto our government, the people WE elect and choose to run OUR country.

 

We will be able to stop unskilled workers just walking in because they hold an European passport, we will be able to turn away any foreign national that we deem unfit for not only our values, but our way of life including our laws.

We will have that option.

Currently right now we don't.

 

And if people don't think mass immigration is a problem, then you're blinded by your hate towards stupid news outlets and your own views.

 

Oh and if 6 months down the line a new policy comes in we don't like, we can change that.

We can also change the government in the Uk, we can't change who's in control in the EU.

That's another issue.

[Chris Wilson]

I think not being a member of the EU would allow more right wing orientated parties or more right wing senior members of governing parties, easier control of immigration, and more robust, unfettered powers to deal with undesirables already here. I still believe that the EU as we have come to know, and certainly Schengen, are in their death throws, and as such have an unpredictable future, and future implications for its members.

 

Although as a writer and orator I find Max Hastings mediocre, I had to applaud this article in the Sunday papers :

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3499652/Could-lead-war-Europe-Apocalyptic-yes-conflict-avoided-MAX-HASTINGS-says-unchecked-mass-migration-make-Europe-unrecognisable.html

[Hemanhead]

See previous comments re. Daily Fail

 

Some interesting points regarding the assumption that leaving the EU will be like turning off a tap for immigration: http://heindehaas.blogspot.co.uk/2015/05/will-brexit-curb-immigration.html

 

From 2015 but interesting and relevant nonetheless in terms of whether immigration should be the 'be all and end all' of the vote.

 

It would be unfortunate if one side wins the vote and 6 months down the line we are all affected by a new piece of legislation only for us to turn around and say "oh dear, I was too focused on immigration to even think of that".

 

It is a very 'grey' outcome, things will certainly change hugely if we leave. Whether it is for better or worse is the unknown element that'll be what sways the majority towards the 'in' vote I think.

 

I couldn't care less if the country went bankrupt - get these people out, take back some sort of national identity. The majority will want it; so give it to them. These facts and figures about billions being lost in revenue are totally irrelevant because even if they were true, none of the money ever reaches the downtrodden anyway so why do you suck it up, why are you so worried, you will be in the same situation regardless.

[Kendo11]

I don't need to read the daily fail to see why people kick up about immigration.

Regardless of where immigration falls on your list of priorities, it does fall high on others, and for very good reasons as I stated above.

 

Again, it doesn't affect you so you're not interested.

 

It falls high on my list of priorities, and it does affect me I, and I am interested.

 

As do other elements of the leave/stay vote. It ALL affects ALL of us.

 

I'm getting the impression you think I'm saying "I don't care this doesn't matter etc etc etc" when what I'm saying is "this is not the whole issue".

 

No one said the tap would be turned off.

 

That is the tone being used by several news outlets and 'political' groups - slowly being ramped up in the run up to the vote. The influence and amount of people who blindingly absorb this mis-information means there are a lot of people out there (and on here) who think it'll be like a light switch. Plenty are saying exactly that. That simply isn't the case.

 

And if people don't think mass immigration is a problem, then you're blinded by your hate towards stupid news outlets and your own views.

 

The point where the numbers become "mass" and the point where that becomes a "problem" shouldn't be the sole issues getting media coverage concerning whether we stay or leave the European Union in my opinion. I think that's what you're missing from what I'm saying.

[Kendo11]

I couldn't care less if the country went bankrupt.

 

Truthfully?

[Hemanhead]

Truthfully?

 

Yeah truthfully. To walk around a country that is Londoncentric, inhabitted by users and parasites from other places who care not for it. Towns are decrepit, services past overrun, hospitals are dirty, the elderly neglected, poor housing, terrible food, skills shortage, overcrowded schools with four or five languages spoken as a first before English....theres not much to be proud of and there hasn't been for a very long time.

 

Things can't get any worse for alot of people. There is only one vote for change and not two. Because to stay just means a guaranteed more of the same.

[Kendo11]

Yeah truthfully. To walk around a country that is Londoncentric, inhabitted by users and parasites from other places who care not for it. Towns are decrepit, services past overrun, hospitals are dirty, the elderly neglected, poor housing, terrible food, skills shortage, overcrowded schools with four or five languages spoken as a first before English....theres not much to be proud of and there hasn't been for a very long time.

 

Things can't get any worse for alot of people. There is only one vote for change and not two. Because to stay just means a guaranteed more of the same.

 

Agree with the problems we're having, is that because of the EU or because of our own scumbag politicians though?

[Al Massey]

It falls high on my list of priorities, and it does affect me I, and I am interested.

 

As do other elements of the leave/stay vote. It ALL affects ALL of us.

 

I'm getting the impression you think I'm saying "I don't care this doesn't matter etc etc etc" when what I'm saying is "this is not the whole issue".

 

 

 

That is the tone being used by several news outlets and 'political' groups - slowly being ramped up in the run up to the vote. The influence and amount of people who blindingly absorb this mis-information means there are a lot of people out there (and on here) who think it'll be like a light switch. Plenty are saying exactly that. That simply isn't the case.

 

 

 

The point where the numbers become "mass" and the point where that becomes a "problem" shouldn't be the sole issues getting media coverage concerning whether we stay or leave the European Union in my opinion. I think that's what you're missing from what I'm saying.

 

Sorry I wasn't directly aiming it at you, but at those who turns blind eye and aren't willing to talk about immigration or think it shouldn't be a priority.

 

Yes I agree it all affects all of us, but many only concentrate on what affects them directly and take things out of context.

Many don't believe immigration is a problem, because they don't see it in their everyday lives.

Many think staying in will benefit them personally and financially but don't care about the ramifications of others.

 

Yes mass immigration will stop.

The minute we are out and WE can set our own laws on immigration and their benefits, not only will the majority stop coming here but we will have the power to turn them away.

 

We don't need numbers to describe mass immigration, it's already mass when any non skilled immigrants come here and saturate the market.

 

As I said skilled workers are fine, it's the unskilled workers happy to work on minimum wage which has a knock on affect throughout everything.

 

There was a time managers wages were decent.

Now, many managerial roles only offer £19k a year.

Why do you think that is?

Because unskilled workers are being paid peanuts, so the trend carries on up the top.

 

The amount of jobs I wouldn't apply for because it paid peanuts for a manger position was unreal.

And it's quite shocking when they expect great work and many hours but won't pay you for it.

It's disgusting.

 

 

And immigration isn't the sole issue being reported by the media.

Not from what I can see anyway

[Hemanhead]

Agree with the problems we're having, is that because of the EU or because of our own scumbag politicians though?

 

Politicians are a breed the world over, i'd argue there is not one tangible difference. But really i'd see them as 'enablers' for the people with the real power, the faces behind big business and corporation. They lobby our politicians (Lobby means pay) to make their lives better (richer) and the by product is our lives become poorer.

 

If in some way the country were to lose billions or trillions by this vote, can you see how it can't effect those who have nothing to be lost in the first place and they can only gain?

[Kendo11]

Sorry I wasn't directly aiming it at you, but at those who turns blind eye and aren't willing to talk about immigration or think it shouldn't be a priority.

 

Yes I agree it all affects all of us, but many only concentrate on what affects them directly and take things out of context.

Many don't believe immigration is a problem, because they don't see it in their everyday lives.

Many think staying in will benefit them personally and financially but don't care about the ramifications of others.

 

Yes mass immigration will stop.

The minute we are out and WE can set our own laws on immigration and their benefits, not only will the majority stop coming here but we will have the power to turn them away.

 

We don't need numbers to describe mass immigration, it's already mass when any non skilled immigrants come here and saturate the market.

 

As I said skilled workers are fine, it's the unskilled workers happy to work on minimum wage which has a knock on affect throughout everything.

 

There was a time managers wages were decent.

Now, many managerial roles only offer £19k a year.

Why do you think that is?

Because unskilled workers are being paid peanuts, so the trend carries on up the top.

 

The amount of jobs I wouldn't apply for because it paid peanuts for a manger position was unreal.

And it's quite shocking when they expect great work and many hours but won't pay you for it.

It's disgusting.

 

 

And immigration isn't the sole issue being reported by the media.

Not from what I can see anyway

 

Ah right sorry Al I misinterpreted who you were directing it at.

 

That's not my experience of wages to be honest, far from it.

[Pete]

Yeah truthfully. To walk around a country that is Londoncentric, inhabitted by users and parasites from other places who care not for it. Towns are decrepit, services past overrun, hospitals are dirty, the elderly neglected, poor housing, terrible food, skills shortage, overcrowded schools with four or five languages spoken as a first before English....theres not much to be proud of and there hasn't been for a very long time.

 

Things can't get any worse for alot of people. There is only one vote for change and not two. Because to stay just means a guaranteed more of the same.

 

You should try living in Athens a while.

[Pete]

There was a time managers wages were decent.

Now, many managerial roles only offer £19k a year.

Why do you think that is?

Because unskilled workers are being paid peanuts, so the trend carries on up the top.

The cheaper the better for me to employ people.

[Al Massey]

Ah right sorry Al I misinterpreted who you were directing it at.

 

That's not my experience of wages to be honest, far from it.

 

When I first considered leaving the army many years ago, I was looking at managers wages and they were paying a lot more than I was on in the army at the time.

 

When I first got out after redundancy, managers wages were still desirable and still over the £25k a year mark.

 

Last week whilst I was searching other jobs in my matched criteria, the same jobs and types of jobs are only paying £19-£21k a year.

 

And looking the people/workers I'd be managing, they are all unskilled workers on minimum wage.

 

My mum who worked at asda for years had a better starting wage then than what they are paying new starters now.

 

Yet, it should be the other way around due to inflation.

That's not the case, wages are getting pushed down to the minimum allowed, zero hour contracts and longer probation periods.

All to maximise profit and minimise the spend on wages.

 

It's utter bullshit.

[AJI]

 

It is a very 'grey' outcome, things will certainly change hugely if we leave. Whether it is for better or worse is the unknown element that'll be what sways the majority towards the 'in' vote I think.

 

Things will change if we leave the EU - yes - I very much hope so.

But there is no reason to think that any changes would be a bad thing - after all it would be the UK government making the changes, not the EU.

It would therefore be the UK people 'controlling' the changes (via democracy and your government term election vote), and not a bunch of un-elected bureaucrats from the EU that don't have the UK's interests near the top of their list.

The "grey area" would surely be more applicable to staying 'in' the EU.

 

Put it another way - if we were currently out of the EU and voting to go 'in'. We would currently have a fully accountable government with full control over the UK's affairs, with a 'prospect' of voting in to a system whereby we give up the majority of our sovereignty and give control of new laws to people that we have no control over.

Its surely a 'no-brainer' which option gives the most 'grey area'

 

 

But I understand what you are saying, it is this 'unknown' that is being turned in to "campaign fear" by the "in group".