Europe

[jim]

Interested to see how it plays out in Northern Ireland - like Scotland we voted to remain, I think that most here voted on the basis of how leaving or remaining would impact upon our own lives. Have to admit that I feel a little bitter that the people of England have decided our fate, but that's democracy Sinn Fein are rubbing their hands together this morning too - there are already suggestions that we will have a border poll (referendum on a united Ireland) and there is a real possibility that we will end up as part of a united Ireland not because people want to leave the union, but because people want to remain in the EU.

[JasonR24]

You just don't get it, the EU has been a positive experience for the Scots, who have traded with Europe since the Middle Ages. Scottish politics and Scottish public opinion are not formed by a reaction to what happens in England.

 

That level of arrogance that suggests that we only react to English events and don't have our own positive view angers a lot of Scots.

 

So most Scots want to leave a union where they feel they aren't listened to, to join a union where they GUARANTEED won't get listened to.

 

And you're telling me that's not to do with the English?

 

 

 

[Jellybean]

 

 

 

[j_jza80]

Interested to see how it plays out in Northern Ireland - like Scotland we voted to remain, I think that most here voted on the basis of how leaving or remaining would impact upon our own lives. Have to admit that I feel a little bitter that the people of England have decided our fate, but that's democracy Sinn Fein are rubbing their hands together this morning too - there are already suggestions that we will have a border poll (referendum on a united Ireland) and there is a real possibility that we will end up as part of a united Ireland not because people want to leave the union, but because people want to remain in the EU.

 

I do particularly feel for the people of Northern Ireland and Gibraltar today. This will be hardest on them, but equally it isn't fair that the English and Welsh are kept in the EU either. But being part of the UK, Gibraltar and Northern Ireland are free to hold their own independence referendums if you so wish.

 

Just be thankful you're not a part of Spain, their treatment of the Catalans is utterly abhorrent. If I were in government, I would be sending a very clear, but polite signal to the Spanish government that Gibraltars freedom of self determination is absolute, and we will not tolerate any kind of aggression or intimidation.

[Pete]

Has it returned to adult conversation around here yet?

 

Congratulations out voters, I hope you've got plenty of savings in the bank.

 

What should I say to my friend in Slovakia?

 

Peter, the debate here is about the consequences for Czech, Slovakia & EU in general. Im afraid Putin is very happy about the result and Im scared this will give me a way in his agressive politics in the eastern part of Europe. Slovakia is so close, so close to Russia ....its chilling. Im pretty scare honestly...

She was born into a time of Russian rule. It was horrible under the iron curtain for them.

 

There's an amazing Cold War museum in Prague, really opened my eyes as to what it was like and how recently too.

[AJI]

Well.... interesting result.

If the opinion polls were to be believed then we were heading for remain, but instead it is leave.

 

Do I feel elated, or am I in a "told you so" attitude, no, nothing of the sort. I did vote leave and argued why I would do so on this thread.

However, what I do feel is that we have shown one of the true natures of being fundamentally British and that is we've had a proper democratic process; but also equally importantly is that it has shown that a lot of change is required for the UK government to become more relevant and connected to the British public.

 

This should go along way to provide some comfort to the Scotts - where over recent years they have felt ignored, overruled and under-funded. (Similarly in fact to how a lot of the North of England has been feeling).

Hopefully we can now see a change that brings wealth and prosperity not only to the top companies of the UK but EVERY company.

 

Of course that wish may sound contradictory to those companies that are heavily tied to the EU, but try not to believe all the doom mongers out there. Remember that BOTH sides of the coin benefit from trade - there is just as much incentive for an EU company to trade with the UK as there is for the UK to trade with the EU.

 

 

The short term worry are the markets and currencies.

But already we are seeing a bounce back from the initial shock of the result. Traders realising "what exactly are we running away from?", coming back to realise the value of British businesses and the new opportunities that lie ahead with not being inhibited by EU rules.

 

 

My final point in this thread is that although immigration has been brought forward as a main voting point, immigration for me was one of the bottom elements of my list. (My wife originates from outside the EU and other members of my family have relationships with immigrants from other parts of the world). This vote has never been a racist demonstration against the left-establishment. For me the fundamental voting issue has always been to preserve our UK democracy.

 

For those who are noticing a lot of bitter-pill swallowing on the likes of british TV media, facebook, twitter etc., please don't let them divide the country in to a racist to-and-fro. Everyone should be better than that; we are better than that.

[stevie_b]

http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb469/clodola/FEFA729E-5BA8-4EFE-A8FB-8F425F70DC07_zpss7zwmogq.jpg

Do you mean a Brexit referendum? If short, no. The question shouldn't be asked again unless either a lot of time has passed (25+ years), or the circumstances have drastically changed. The 2nd reason is why Scotland could well have another independence referendum sooner rather than later. The last time, they thought they were voting to stay in a UK that's part of the EU (and hence voting for Scotland to remain in the EU).

[j_jza80]

It's NATO that keeps Eastern Europe safe, not the EU. The EU's track record on military operations is shocking.

 

As we have always done, we will continue to honour our allegiances to our European friends and allies.

[j_jza80]

Well.... interesting result.

If the opinion polls were to be believed then we were heading for remain, but instead it is leave.

 

Do I feel elated, or am I in a "told you so" attitude, no, nothing of the sort. I did vote leave and argued why I would do so on this thread.

However, what I do feel is that we have shown one of the true natures of being fundamentally British and that is we've had a proper democratic process; but also equally importantly is that it has shown that a lot of change is required for the UK government to become more relevant and connected to the British public.

 

This should go along way to provide some comfort to the Scotts - where over recent years they have felt ignored, overruled and under-funded. (Similarly in fact to how a lot of the North of England has been feeling).

Hopefully we can now see a change that brings wealth and prosperity not only to the top companies of the UK but EVERY company.

 

Of course that wish may sound contradictory to those companies that are heavily tied to the EU, but try not to believe all the doom mongers out there. Remember that BOTH sides of the coin benefit from trade - there is just as much incentive for an EU company to trade with the UK as there is for the UK to trade with the EU.

 

 

The short term worry are the markets and currencies.

But already we are seeing a bounce back from the initial shock of the result. Traders realising "what exactly are we running away from?", coming back to realise the value of British businesses and the new opportunities that lie ahead with not being inhibited by EU rules.

 

 

My final point in this thread is that although immigration has been brought forward as a main voting point, immigration for me was one of the bottom elements of my list. (My wife originates from outside the EU and other members of my family have relationships with immigrants from other parts of the world). This vote has never been a racist demonstration against the left-establishment. For me the fundamental voting issue has always been to preserve our UK democracy.

 

For those who are noticing a lot of bitter-pill swallowing on the likes of british TV media, facebook, twitter etc., please don't let them divide the country in to a racist to-and-fro. Everyone should be better than that; we are better than that.

 

Good post

 

Unfortunately, the divide on immigration is largely the fault of the Remain campaign. They had no counter to Leaves immigration argument (there is no rational argument in favour of uncontrolled mass immigration), so they resorted to smearing leave supporters as racists.

 

Those smears, and Cameron and Osborne's campaign of saturation scaremongering, are going to haunt the UK for months to come.

[AJI]

Thanks J.

 

Yeah you may be right, I just hope the public are more intelligent to rise above it all.

It would also help if the likes of the BBC and SKY didn't turn it in to such a polarising issue (ie. going to the far ends of extreme on each argument or point made). But the problem is that polorising issues are what drags people in to debate and viewing figures.

[Pete]

You know there's gonna be a huge influx of immigrants that want to get in before the door closes?

That'll have the racists frothing at the mouth.

[AJI]

You know there's gonna be a huge influx of immigrants that want to get in before the door closes?

That'll have the racists frothing at the mouth.

 

EU immigrants or non-EU immigrants?

 

If there is an influx of EU immigrant applications then this would suggest that people are wanting to jump off a sinking EU ship. This may actually happen as the likes of Greece, Spain , Italy are years away from getting control of their national deficits. They are going to probably need more bail-outs or they are just going to struggle along with little growth.

 

Non-EU immigrants, for example all the economic migrants from the middle-east, they shouldn't see any real difference to the status of their efforts to make it to the UK. Its more or less status quo for them isn't it?

[Westcoaster]

Are you just going to keep calling for "IndyRef's" until you get the result you want?

 

For me, personally, yes......

 

Isnt that a little unfair on all the people who voted to stay in the union and that were upset by the violent scenes?

 

The only violent scenes were caused by union flag wielding, right wing thugs who supported the Union.

 

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13181097.George_Square_Trouble__The_night_our_readers_became_reporters/

[j_jza80]

You know there's gonna be a huge influx of immigrants that want to get in before the door closes?

That'll have the racists frothing at the mouth.

 

Yep and the racists can get stuffed. Better a short term boom in migration than long term, never ending growth.

 

Something positive that I think that everyone can take from this experience, leave or remain alike, and even people around the world, is that we have just proven that the people can make a difference. Against all the odds, the government, the world's political elite, the giant multinationals, the banks etc, we've just found our voice, and clearly told them that we've had enough. We aren't just figures on their balance sheets to be manipulated.

[imi]

Interested to see how it plays out in Northern Ireland - like Scotland we voted to remain, I think that most here voted on the basis of how leaving or remaining would impact upon our own lives. Have to admit that I feel a little bitter that the people of England have decided our fate, but that's democracy Sinn Fein are rubbing their hands together this morning too - there are already suggestions that we will have a border poll (referendum on a united Ireland) and there is a real possibility that we will end up as part of a united Ireland not because people want to leave the union, but because people want to remain in the EU.

 

The Scots voted knowing that there was an EU referendum looming so this should have been factored in. I see no reason for there to be another referendum on devolution again..

 

People need a better understanding of what it means to be in a union......you can't simply throw your toys our of the pram everytime a decision does not align to your liking......if that's the case then it's a very superficial relationship and probably worth parting company.

 

 

 

[Pete]

EU immigrants or non-EU immigrants?

 

If there is an influx of EU immigrant applications then this would suggest that people are wanting to jump off a sinking EU ship. This may actually happen as the likes of Greece, Spain , Italy are years away from getting control of their national deficits. They are going to probably need more bail-outs or they are just going to struggle along with little growth.

 

Non-EU immigrants, for example all the economic migrants from the middle-east, they shouldn't see any real difference to the status of their efforts to make it to the UK. Its more or less status quo for them isn't it?

EU of course. But as others keep saying on here the non-EU's making their way over get rubber-stamped in any EU country can then make it this way quickly.

 

Maybe the masterplan on immigration is to make our country so bad nobody wants to come here?

 

I still think it's a double bluff. If the powers that be REALLY wanted us to stay in Europe they'd be saying the result was too marginal or some other excuse to get out. They wanted us out of Europe so they can do their own wicked deeds without contention.

 

Maybe it is all for the best. If the EU falls apart then the UK will look better for it, Greece can default and return to being what it was good at - a cheap holiday destination. My mortgage will go back to Drachmas and I can pay it with a couple of tubes of Smarties. Here's hoping.

[Pete]

We aren't just figures on their balance sheets to be manipulated.

Wishful thinking.

[Westcoaster]

So most Scots want to leave a union where they feel they aren't listened to, to join a union where they GUARANTEED won't get listened to.

 

And you're telling me that's not to do with the English?

 

 

/QUOTE]

 

Yes!

 

As an independent country within the EU, we would be treated as an equal, Scotland is very, very poorly represented in the EU currently, due to the lack of MEPs we have and because EU business is carried out through Westminster's sceptical lens.

 

In the current Westminster set up, Scotland is marginalised and ignored by successive right wing tory governments...........

[Westcoaster]

The Scots voted knowing that there was an EU referendum looming so this should have been factored in. I see no reason for there to be another referendum on devolution again..

 

It was buried away in the tory manifesto and the tories are a minority party in Scotland, plus, the general election was 8 months away at that point, so your argument is mince!

 

People need a better understanding of what it means to be in a union......you can't simply throw your toys our of the pram everytime a decision does not align to your liking......if that's the case then it's a very superficial relationship and probably worth parting company.

 

 

/QUOTE]

 

The Scots have had the wrong end of a 215 year old, one sided Union. It's time we had our Independence Day.

[Al Massey]

Worrying result for how Scots voted. Too many with the independence head on and I for one won't be voting to leave the U.K. To be dragged back into the EU again if another referendum happens with the SNP. Great result to be getting out of the failing EU but Scotland is doomed if they try negotiate back in I think. Time to put all this to bed negotiate the exit and leave it all alone to build a future. Scotland starts all this again and I'll be looking at a move abroad. Hmmm Texas is nice haha

 

I thought you wanted to remain in the EU?

[imi]

It was buried away in the tory manifesto and the tories are a minority party in Scotland, plus, the general election was 8 months away at that point, so your argument is mince!

 

 

 

The Scots have had the wrong end of a 215 year old, one sided Union. It's time we had our Independence Day.

 

That's a super lame excuse....

 

You guys had your say - you said it was a once in a lifetime decision - going back on your word would show that your word is worth zilch

 

 

 

 

 

[imi]

I see similarities with a relationship with a gold digger - sex is great when she gets to live the high life - as soon as that starts to be impacted she is quick to threaten to leave.....you cave in and the cycle continues to until the next tantrum.

 

Not a lasting relationship...I've dumped a few of those in my time

 

 

 

[Al Massey]

You just don't get it, the EU has been a positive experience for the Scots, who have traded with Europe since the Middle Ages. Scottish politics and Scottish public opinion are not formed by a reaction to what happens in England.

 

That level of arrogance that suggests that we only react to English events and don't have our own positive view angers a lot of Scots.

 

Trading with Europe is completely different to trading with the EU.

 

England, and Great Britain have been trading with the world for probably a lot longer in one form or another.

 

And to call me arrogant because I asked a question, when my Scottish friends were voting leave and not remain isn't arrogant.

It was seeing a trend!

 

And since you've stated you want to keep having an independent referendum time and time again because you didn't get your way is what is arrogant!

 

It's like a child stamping their feet and crying to their parents because they didn't give them sweets.

[Al Massey]

Yes!

 

As an independent country within the EU, we would be treated as an equal, Scotland is very, very poorly represented in the EU currently, due to the lack of MEPs we have and because EU business is carried out through Westminster's sceptical lens.

 

In the current Westminster set up, Scotland is marginalised and ignored by successive right wing tory governments...........

 

The U.K. Wasn't treated as an equal in the EU.

Neither is many member states, so why do you think Scotland would be?

 

And this is an actual question and not a slagging match by the way!

[JasonR24]

Yes!

 

As an independent country within the EU, we would be treated as an equal, Scotland is very, very poorly represented in the EU currently, due to the lack of MEPs we have and because EU business is carried out through Westminster's sceptical lens.

 

In the current Westminster set up, Scotland is marginalised and ignored by successive right wing tory governments...........

 

In the EU all countries are equal. Except some countries are more equal than others

 

The English would gladly let Scotland have more say! Our union is important and much older than the EU. We're adjoined on an island.

 

I would bet my life on it that if Scotland leaves us and joins the EU you'll be more powerless than you've ever been. Probably end up as the next Greece living off bail outs.