j_jza80 Posted December 3, 2015 Author Share Posted December 3, 2015 Yes, anyone found knowingly starting a terrorist group should be punished. It is against existing laws. But we aren't the sole creators of this. They fill a vacuum / demand created by people who think that religion is a more suitable system of governance than democracy. Do we punish everyone who thinks religion should = law? Or those who indoctrinate others to believe they have more in common with people from the middle east, than their own countrymen in the West, just because they happen to have read the same book, and been fed the same stories? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonR24 Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Yes, anyone found knowingly starting a terrorist group should be punished. It is against existing laws. But we aren't the sole creators of this. They fill a vacuum / demand created by people who think that religion is a more suitable system of governance than democracy. Do we punish everyone who thinks religion should = law? Or those who indoctrinate others to believe they have more in common with people from the middle east, than their own countrymen in the West, just because they happen to have read the same book, and been fed the same stories? I guarantee that no one involved in these proxy wars wil be punished and that people will gloss over that part of history.... The reason Isis exists is because many terrorist groups which were created, armed and funded by our governments decided to get to together that's the short version and more and more people have joined their cause because they were either forced into, because they wanted to protect their families because of the bombing or because they have lost family due to western bombing and have nothing to lose. Don't get me wrong, I do not support Isis I'm against them too but honestly I am not ever going to turn around and say someone like David Cameron is doing this for the good of anybody because he's not and I don't think thst religion is a replacement for law. You say that they are indoctrinated? But wouldn't you say that many people who support Cameron are also indoctrinated? I would argue the media and our government indoctrinate the majority of people to simply accept what they are told and not question anything. Would you agree? It's all perspective, to ISIS they are the freedom fighters and we are the terrorists. In my view, any organisation that gets too big and thirsty for power are terrorists because they abuse their power. Whether that's terror through resources, aggression or money doesn't matter, it's all hideous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted December 3, 2015 Author Share Posted December 3, 2015 There's a very big difference. You can only vote when you're considered an adult. You have the freedom to choose who to vote for, for whatever reason you like. You may vote for different people every time if you wish. Religious indoctrination generally starts at birth, or with people who have something missing in their lives. Vulnerable people who are open to suggestion. People take advantage of that vulnerability, and force their beliefs onto them. Any attempt to leave the so called religion is met with hostility and isolation if the individual can't be persuaded to rejoin. I have seen this first hand with Christians and Muslims, it's widely documented among Jews, Scientologists and Jehovas Witnesses, and I'm sure it happens in any religion. IMO religion shouldn't enter people's lives until they are adults, and only through free will. Forcing it on children just perpetuates the cycle of oppression and division. And no matter what people say, it is never for the child's benefit, only to relieve the selfish cultural insecurities of the parents. There obviously is political indoctrination that goes on, but it is nothing on the same scale. Religious indoctrination has become so ingrained it has become normal. Anyway, back to the morbid matter at hand, and one has to wonder why we are even bothering to fight ISIS, when our own courts side with Jihadis and their accomplices http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34999781 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Massey Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Is are not Israel. Palestine is not innocent! Don't forget Israel was attacked by all neighbouring Muslim countries countless times. They just got their arse handed to them. Palestine is run by a terrorist group. They attack Israel too and cower in civilian populations. The UN have even stated that Palestine have violated human rights, and committed war crimes too. So stop placing all the blame on the world on Israel and claiming Palestine is innocent. It's not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendo11 Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Back to IS, confirmed Dutch Turkish IS fighter Israfil Yilmas is being open on Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/user/chechclear/ Gives people an idea of the mentality. And attached are images of IS's latest recruits, who (6 of them) today executed alleged enemy spies, 5 by point blank shooting and the final one by beheading. Nothing new there you might say, until you realise the age of them. I said at the very start of this thread, and have said it since elsewhere: you can not fight an ideology with bombs and hope to win. This is an ideology, this is brainwashing, this is going back to ancient Greece and young men & boys being desensitised to killing & death so as to make better soldiers. [ATTACH]207242[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]207243[/ATTACH] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted December 3, 2015 Author Share Posted December 3, 2015 Fascism was an ideology that was rife across Europe in the 1930's. By the mid 1940s, it was relegated to one nation (Spain) Communism is another one. It was also once rife, several decades later it was largely gone. Ideologies can be defeated. You expose their faults, then either fight them full on, or let them destroy themselves. Of the two examples I gave you, you might be surprised to know that the second method, which may sound the most peaceful, resulted in circa twice the number of deaths as the first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hogmaw Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Back to IS, confirmed Dutch Turkish IS fighter Israfil Yilmas is being open on Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/user/chechclear/ Gives people an idea of the mentality. Interesting. Here's a video of him being interviewed. Like many people who do wrong, he thinks he is doing right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hogmaw Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Fascism was an ideology that was rife across Europe in the 1930's. By the mid 1940s, it was relegated to one nation (Spain) And in 2015 we have our very own fascist sympathiser Chris Wilson: "Europe has had it. They had their chances and they blew them. Once the siege is complete the occupation and changes will get going in earnest. Hundreds of years of culture and development down the drain. Would this be occurring had the Germans won the war and hadn't become emancipated apologetic Liberals, in the main? In a relatively few years they have gone from dominant and audacious aggressors, mooting a master race, to simpering Liberals holding their doors wide open to the detritus marching unhindered across Europe." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendo11 Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Fascism was an ideology that was rife across Europe in the 1930's. By the mid 1940s, it was relegated to one nation (Spain) Communism is another one. It was also once rife, several decades later it was largely gone. Ideologies can be defeated. You expose their faults, then either fight them full on, or let them destroy themselves. Of the two examples I gave you, you might be surprised to know that the second method, which may sound the most peaceful, resulted in circa twice the number of deaths as the first. I didn't say it can't be defeated, only that it can't be defeated by bombs. What we're doing already in Iraq & what we're now doing will strengthen their resolve, not diminish it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendo11 Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 And in 2015 we have our very own fascist sympathiser Chris Wilson: "Europe has had it. They had their chances and they blew them. Once the siege is complete the occupation and changes will get going in earnest. Hundreds of years of culture and development down the drain. Would this be occurring had the Germans won the war and hadn't become emancipated apologetic Liberals, in the main? In a relatively few years they have gone from dominant and audacious aggressors, mooting a master race, to simpering Liberals holding their doors wide open to the detritus marching unhindered across Europe." Yeah I totally ignored that. Couldn't work out if it was satire... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Weren't you saying not long ago that we should be keeping out of Syria? Why is Palestine any different? . the language I use is fairly elementary english and yet you seem to struggle to follow my posts, bizarre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted December 3, 2015 Author Share Posted December 3, 2015 I didn't say it can't be defeated, only that it can't be defeated by bombs. What we're doing already in Iraq & what we're now doing will strengthen their resolve, not diminish it. The point was, European fascism was defeated with bombs. And a lot of men, guns, violence and death. But it worked. The death of Communism was a drawn out affair, that involved no bombing. And as a result, many more people died. Conservative estimates for those who dies under Mao are 15m more than all casualties in WW2. Some put the overall figure over 100m, but there are no accurate figures. Sometimes inaction can cause far more death and destruction than war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Yes, anyone found knowingly starting a terrorist group should be punished. It is against existing laws. But we aren't the sole creators of this. They fill a vacuum / demand created by people who think that religion is a more suitable system of governance than democracy. Do we punish everyone who thinks religion should = law? Or those who indoctrinate others to believe they have more in common with people from the middle east, than their own countrymen in the West, just because they happen to have read the same book, and been fed the same stories? punish - more like support - barbaric govts like Saudi, Qatar, Bahrain, Kuwait and Israel. We cant even hold Blair responsible for the Iraq travesty - what is it now, 6 years and still waiting for the chilcot report... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34999781 dont know much about this case however my understanding is that this is to do with revoking their british citizenship status of the wife and the two sons - neither of which have any known association with any former or current terrorist group. If that is the case - then what seems to be the issue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Is are not Israel. Palestine is not innocent! Don't forget Israel was attacked by all neighbouring Muslim countries countless times. They just got their arse handed to them. Palestine is run by a terrorist group. They attack Israel too and cower in civilian populations. The UN have even stated that Palestine have violated human rights, and committed war crimes too. So stop placing all the blame on the world on Israel and claiming Palestine is innocent. It's not. As mentioned before for the hard to understand - anyone and everyone must be answerable for their crimes, be it Israel, Saudi, Palestine (whats left of it) OR whomever. the hypocrisy of our govts by turning a blind eye to these select few is sickening - not sure how civilized people can support such terrorist countries - they are equally worse as nutters like ISIS, Al-Qeada...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendo11 Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 The point was, European fascism was defeated with bombs. And a lot of men, guns, violence and death. But it worked. The death of Communism was a drawn out affair, that involved no bombing. And as a result, many more people died. Conservative estimates for those who dies under Mao are 15m more than all casualties in WW2. Some put the overall figure over 100m, but there are no accurate figures. Sometimes inaction can cause far more death and destruction than war. Again, it can't be defeated by bombs. Nor can fascism and extreme communism going back to the Mao era be compared to now. It is a different world entirely, the ideological influence IS have is something dictators of the past would never have even dreamed of. To answer your second point, I've not suggested inaction either. It's that this action will have little effect, certainly the possible negatives outweigh the positives. This 'war', should be an information war firstly. IS already have the upper hand digitally, able to pass instructions & inspirational material across the world in a nanosecond. A brimstone taking out a Hilux will make zero difference to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Interesting. Here's a video of him being interviewed. Like many people who do wrong, he thinks he is doing right. another confused individual - unfortunately a trained killer who is transferring his skills to other nutters. Was he radicalised in Syria OR in the Netherlands? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted December 4, 2015 Author Share Posted December 4, 2015 Again, it can't be defeated by bombs. Nor can fascism and extreme communism going back to the Mao era be compared to now. It is a different world entirely, the ideological influence IS have is something dictators of the past would never have even dreamed of. To answer your second point, I've not suggested inaction either. It's that this action will have little effect, certainly the possible negatives outweigh the positives. This 'war', should be an information war firstly. IS already have the upper hand digitally, able to pass instructions & inspirational material across the world in a nanosecond. A brimstone taking out a Hilux will make zero difference to that. I don't disagree, I was just suggesting that ideologies can be defeated, whether internally or externally, but what might initially appear to be the most peaceful manner can be the bloodiest in the end. One of tonight's guests on Question Time is an ex Jihadist, who's now part of an anti extremism think tank. He made a pretty compelling argument in favour of bombing, and that without the combined air support effort of the coalition, they would have had a much tougher time with ISIS. And he also pointed out that the airstrikes have prevented any of the media Grandstanding seen in the early days of Isis, for fear of airstrikes. So there is a case to be made for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Again, it can't be defeated by bombs. Nor can fascism and extreme communism going back to the Mao era be compared to now. It is a different world entirely, the ideological influence IS have is something dictators of the past would never have even dreamed of. To answer your second point, I've not suggested inaction either. It's that this action will have little effect, certainly the possible negatives outweigh the positives. This 'war', should be an information war firstly. IS already have the upper hand digitally, able to pass instructions & inspirational material across the world in a nanosecond. A brimstone taking out a Hilux will make zero difference to that. Like Chris Rock said on Big Pharma: ‘No Money in the Cure, the Money’s in the Medicine’ Feed the business model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendo11 Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Like Chris Rock said on Big Pharma: ‘No Money in the Cure, the Money’s in the Medicine’ Feed the business model. True. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Massey Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Like Chris Rock said on Big Pharma: ‘No Money in the Cure, the Money’s in the Medicine’ Feed the business model. Only simple, single minded think that is true because all they see is the price of the end product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Massey Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 As mentioned before for the hard to understand - anyone and everyone must be answerable for their crimes, be it Israel, Saudi, Palestine (whats left of it) OR whomever. the hypocrisy of our govts by turning a blind eye to these select few is sickening - not sure how civilized people can support such terrorist countries - they are equally worse as nutters like ISIS, Al-Qeada...... Hard to understand? What don't you get? You constantly blame Israel for everything. PALESTINE ARE TERRORISTS. Our government aren't the world police, there is no world police. And you say they pick and choose who to slate or support, yet you do the exact same thing. You think Palestine have the sun shine out of their backside and have done nothing wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Hard to understand? What don't you get? You constantly blame Israel for everything. PALESTINE ARE TERRORISTS. Our government aren't the world police, there is no world police. And you say they pick and choose who to slate or support, yet you do the exact same thing. You think Palestine have the sun shine out of their backside and have done nothing wrong. I agree - we aren't the world police - better to refrain from further invasions and focus on protecting our borders and address the enemy within - I've already suggested that on page 7 of this thread many days ago. Israel Saudi Qatar are terrorist nations in the region with all the troubles. We just choose to support them but it doesn't change what they are. Norman Finklestein that I linked to earlier seems very knowledgable on the subject. Worth looking into for those that are interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 This was an interesting read http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/nicolas-henin-the-man-who-was-held-captive-by-isis-for-10-months-says-how-they-can-be-defeated-a6757336.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Further developments regarding the US shooting that took place the day of launching the attacks on Syria - have ISIS claimed responsibility yet? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-35002741 Do we consider military action in the US or launch air strikes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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