j_jza80 Posted December 3, 2015 Author Share Posted December 3, 2015 But you're talking in a time honored socialist manner; you're assuming that the money we're spending is money in the bank, that can be spent on one thing or another. It is all debt. Hence our enormous budget deficit. If you want to champion a cause for extra NHS spending, make it reducing the deficit down to a surplus, so we can start paying the debt off. The current annual £35b a year we're paying in interest would-be a healthy addition to the NHS budget. And while our NHS has managed to survive the last few years *relatively * unscathed in a budgetary sense, our armed forces have suffered horribly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonR24 Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 BAE has a 600 Million pound contract. What a total joke. You say about corruption in the NHS, I would say corruption in all public services exists, but what can people expect when the politicians who run the country are corrupt as they come? The problem is politics as a whole, the system is totally broken, we should follow a system like switzland has, much more direct and has a greater chance for change! Which will never happen because the corrupt never want change in this country Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted December 3, 2015 Author Share Posted December 3, 2015 BAE has a 600 Million pound contract. What a total joke. You say about corruption in the NHS, I would say corruption in all public services exists, but what can people expect when the politicians who run the country are corrupt as they come? The problem is politics as a whole, the system is totally broken, we should follow a system like switzland has, much more direct and has a greater chance for change! Which will never happen because the corrupt never want change in this country Agreed, all the public services need a thorough change. The NHS is by far the largest though, so small changes will reap the biggest rewards there. But yes, the armed forces, the BBC, local councils, civil service etc all have these problems. As you've kind of alluded to, I think in some respects the concept of society has failed. Yes, people Co exist, there are public services etc. But generally people are preoccupied with the acquisition of material wealth, and having their peice of the pie, and entrenching their selfish beliefs to care about what will happen to us as a society. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonR24 Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Agreed, all the public services need a thorough change. The NHS is by far the largest though, so small changes will reap the biggest rewards there. But yes, the armed forces, the BBC, local councils, civil service etc all have these problems. As you've kind of alluded to, I think in some respects the concept of society has failed. Yes, people Co exist, there are public services etc. But generally people are preoccupied with the acquisition of material wealth, and having their peice of the pie, and entrenching their selfish beliefs to care about what will happen to us as a society. Yea that is how I see it tbh, it's really sad and it's a shame because I've met some really decent people, especially on this forum that go out of their way to help others out. The capacity is there but at the end of the day there are too many people who are just brought into the consumerist way of life. I'm guilty of it, we all are, but is it all worth it to turn a blind eye to the people in charge of our country? I don't think so personally and I really don't think bombing some far away country is going to improve the situation. It will simply increase opposition for western nations and increase ISIS numbers. ISIS exists due to western involvement. I think enough is enough Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 I don't want to discuss Israel, because it has very little to do with this situation. Other than those who use it as a scapegoat, or a justification. This is an open forum rather than a 1:1 conversation - so feel free to NOT respond - that is your prerogative. my view is to choose not to ignore the elephant in the room. And you were trying to blame Israel, at least partially, so it wasn't really out of context. Yes - (there seems to be strong evidence to support it - as linked previously) - my post is there for all to see. This is your post that I had to react to as it was a gross misrepresentation that I will not tolerate. you have done this way too many times in this thread already and it needs to stop. Trying to blame all of this on Israel is feeding into the extremists rhetoric in a way that is every bit as bad as bombing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Massey Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 BAE has a 600 Million pound contract. What a total joke. Do you know what that contract encompasses? Or do you just think it's for bombs to drop in war? Not every contract for war is done on handshakes or deals with mates for politicians to pocket money. Many contracts are done by unknowns, by people and companies that do a hell of a lot more then weapons. Do you know what that £600m has gone to? What BAE do with that money? What BAE make with that money? Invest in, support or help? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted December 3, 2015 Author Share Posted December 3, 2015 But isn't the mantra of society, and indeed Socialism, that those with the broadest shoulders should bare the biggest load? Surely this is meant in more than just economic terms? We shouldn't have to send aircraft, troops etc to fight there wars, but I see so many nations in the region who are able to help, but through either complacency or support for Isis do nothing. To me, that is our greatest mistake here. We should be sanctioning and boycotting the likes of Turkey, Pakistan, Saudi, Iran, Dubai, Qatar etc for refusing to deal with this situation, which is as much their making as it is the West's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonR24 Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Do you know what that contract encompasses? Or do you just think it's for bombs to drop in war? Not every contract for war is done on handshakes or deals with mates for politicians to pocket money. Many contracts are done by unknowns, by people and companies that do a hell of a lot more then weapons. Do you know what that £600m has gone to? What BAE do with that money? What BAE make with that money? Invest in, support or help? Yes I know it's maintenance as well but that's still a very very monopolised sector. Tbh it's the same across the board. it's all the governments fault though, just look at thameslink, 1.6 billion! It must be whoever gives the biggest backhander gets the contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonR24 Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 But isn't the mantra of society, and indeed Socialism, that those with the broadest shoulders should bare the biggest load? Surely this is meant in more than just economic terms? We shouldn't have to send aircraft, troops etc to fight there wars, but I see so many nations in the region who are able to help, but through either complacency or support for Isis do nothing. To me, that is our greatest mistake here. We should be sanctioning and boycotting the likes of Turkey, Pakistan, Saudi, Iran, Dubai, Qatar etc for refusing to deal with this situation, which is as much their making as it is the West's. This I do agree with, it begs the question of WHY haven't they though, I know you said support for ISIS which I definitely belief is one reason but complacency? I don't think so. If anything I'd say that our government doesn't want their intervention because they want instability in the region. Oil is definitely a factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 You say about corruption in the NHS, I would say corruption in all public services exists, but what can people expect when the politicians who run the country are corrupt as they come? The problem is politics as a whole, the system is totally broken, we should follow a system like switzland has, much more direct and has a greater chance for change! Which will never happen because the corrupt never want change in this country “Democracy is the government of the people, by the people, for the people” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonR24 Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 “Democracy is the government of the people, by the people, for the people” In an ideal world. Do you think that's the case in reality? Replace people with elitist corporations and I'd say that's spot on, yes people are behind these corporations but I think they've long lost their humanity! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 What makes me laugh is the government always says there's no money for NHS, Police or much needed services but oh 500k PER bombing run is a good use of resources..... If a bomb needs dropping anywhere it's on Westminster.... NHS / Police + other public services as seen as an expense - War / Military action on the other hand is great business and a repeatable model as proven over the last 25 years. Its the same formula - the characters change - the end result = same (riches for the few, misery for the masses). when you have some that simply look at people's lives as mere pawns to use and abuse all this is simply a formula to maximise power & return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 In an ideal world. Do you think that's the case in reality? Replace people with elitist corporations and I'd say that's spot on, yes people are behind these corporations but I think they've long lost their humanity! If you are suggesting that we have a failed political system + failed society then why are we hell bent on bombing the remaining un-democratic world into submission? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted December 3, 2015 Author Share Posted December 3, 2015 . This is your post that I had to react to as it was a gross misrepresentation that I will not tolerate. you have done this way too many times in this thread already and it needs to stop. Hardly a "gross misrepresentation". I think this elephant in the room you speak of is actually the worldwide brainwashing of Muslims yo believe every scrap of pro Palestinian propaganda that finds it way onto the Internet. I am not a great believer in coincidence, so when I see the propensity of Muslims to post Palestinian propaganda on social media, I see more at work than mere concern. There is a great deal of this happening, and I would be more concerned about who is benefiting from this than a few arms companies, or whatever the Zionists are upto this week. Frankly, the scaremongering regarding Israel resembles the Lizard Men conspiracy, or the bogey man. Yes, they do some awful things, but they don't even compare to the greater threat that Is and it's ilk pose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonR24 Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Hardly a "gross misrepresentation". I think this elephant in the room you speak of is actually the worldwide brainwashing of Muslims yo believe every scrap of pro Palestinian propaganda that finds it way onto the Internet. I am not a great believer in coincidence, so when I see the propensity of Muslims to post Palestinian propaganda on social media, I see more at work than mere concern. There is a great deal of this happening, and I would be more concerned about who is benefiting from this than a few arms companies, or whatever the Zionists are upto this week. Frankly, the scaremongering regarding Israel resembles the Lizard Men conspiracy, or the bogey man. Yes, they do some awful things, but they don't even compare to the greater threat that Is and it's ilk pose. So ISIS are the biggest threat? Yet the people that literally made ISIS aren't as much of s threat? Hmm I'd say the creator is much more dangerous than the created because once this threat is over, they will do it again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted December 3, 2015 Author Share Posted December 3, 2015 Have you read Frankenstein? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Massey Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Yes I know it's maintenance as well but that's still a very very monopolised sector. Tbh it's the same across the board. it's all the governments fault though, just look at thameslink, 1.6 billion! It must be whoever gives the biggest backhander gets the contract. It's not just maintenance. BAE make loads of equipment for the forces, not just weapons. They also look after a lot of equipment too. Then there is also of lot of work for the civilian sector that would be in that contract. It's not alway about getting a backhander. Take the guy who invented hesco bastion. Simple back garden shed home made idea that helped save millions. Wasn't a big corporate deal, or backhanders. It was simply a great idea and product. And wasn't a weapon either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 But to further my point earlier, it isn't because of big business that Muslims are being radicalised. I can accept you thinking business has an influence on Western policy, and it does, because we know the invested interest lobby governments to that end. I would be surprised if IS was a creation of Starbucks, Amazon or Amstrad. However, if we look into the weapons manufactures, Military weapons suppliers, the private security firms and similar others then they have an invested interest in executing their business model. Peace is not profitable - so there is a conflict of interest. When we have the hypocrisy of western policy between some specific nations vs others - example how we treat IS (sorry Israel), Saudi, Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain vs the others - its very clear that something is far from fair, humane, about doing the right thing. As we live in a globalized world the repercussions of our actions are global & local as well. But Is aren't a creation of big business. Their suicide bombers aren't shouting "profit margins" or "big bonus" when they blow themselves up. We can reduce the flow of people leaving this country to fight for them by preventing religious indoctrination here. And by making these impressionable minds aware that their allegiances belong to the people of the country they live in, not people and organisations thousands of miles away. Who is IS? We are led to believe that this group is highly organised, very well structured, resourced, etc however when I look at what happened in Paris - to me it seems like a bunch of nutters who decided to wrap themselves up with explosives to cause max damage to innocent lives. I dont see how exactly bombing Syria going to solve that? IS are quick to claim everything - they even claimed the actions of the nutter in martins place a year ago. we have been programmed to call it IS (Al-Qaeda before) when we see a black flag with what looks like arabic to us - even though most of us cant read arabic and certainly dont understand it. Lets assume that they are super well organised, etc - with the 1M unchecked refugees (mainly men) ALREADY now in Europe - by bombing ISIS in Syria - if they are so organised- wouldn't that unleash the enemy within. As for radicalised people within the UK - a majority seem to think that by dropping bombs on Syria we will somehow de-radicalize them? If these people were indeed radicalised in the UK - then isn't the UK responsible for exporting terrorism to Iraq / Syria? the whole thing is riddled with corruption, they show a photo of a drowned young boy to capitalise on our emotions to gain support for the refugees / they use the humanitarian excuse of the poor Syrian sufferers (while ignoring the suffering of generations of Palestinians, Saudis, Qataris, etc) to drop even more bombs on them. that is how stupid the powers to be think we are - unfortunately they are true. perhaps uncontrolled capitalism is the religion of the 21st century and we are all capitalists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted December 3, 2015 Author Share Posted December 3, 2015 As I have stated, and repeatedly stated, I don't agree with us bombing. I'm not sure why you think I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Hardly a "gross misrepresentation". I think this elephant in the room you speak of is actually the worldwide brainwashing of Muslims yo believe every scrap of pro Palestinian propaganda that finds it way onto the Internet. I am not a great believer in coincidence, so when I see the propensity of Muslims to post Palestinian propaganda on social media, I see more at work than mere concern. There is a great deal of this happening, and I would be more concerned about who is benefiting from this than a few arms companies, or whatever the Zionists are upto this week. Frankly, the scaremongering regarding Israel resembles the Lizard Men conspiracy, or the bogey man. Yes, they do some awful things, but they don't even compare to the greater threat that Is and it's ilk pose. that is certainly true for us in the UK in regards to IS (Israel) - however the innocent Palestinians people would have a different view. Glad you admit that Israel do awful things - how come we don't denounce it - even publicly & politically? - had it been some other country we would have flattened it by now. If we are so humanitarian then why the discrimination in supporting the Syrians sufferers vs Palestinians? is all life not the same? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 As I have stated, and repeatedly stated, I don't agree with us bombing. I'm not sure why you think I do. I know you don't. the response was not just meant for you i'll amend it to reflect that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonR24 Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Have you read Frankenstein? Yes that's a perfect example! Victor frankstein is insanely dangerous, he's the one I'd put down. Some renegade nutcase with no cares just doing whatever he wants, perfect representation of our government and their meddling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted December 3, 2015 Author Share Posted December 3, 2015 that is certainly true for us in the UK in regards to IS (Israel) - however the innocent Palestinians people would have a different view. Glad you admit that Israel do awful things - how come we don't denounce it - even publicly & politically? - had it been some other country we would have flattened it by now. If we are so humanitarian then why the discrimination in supporting the Syrians sufferers vs Palestinians? is all life not the same? Weren't you saying not long ago that we should be keeping out of Syria? Why is Palestine any different? As far as our involvement should go in that barbaric conflict, we should be coming down hard on the Israelis for their abhorrent actions. But also on the Palestinians, for their inexcusable, indiscriminate rocket attacks on civilian populations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted December 3, 2015 Author Share Posted December 3, 2015 Yes that's a perfect example! Victor frankstein is insanely dangerous, he's the one I'd put down. Some renegade nutcase with no cares just doing whatever he wants, perfect representation of our government and their meddling. The metaphor of the book is someone meddling in things beyond his comprehension, and asking 'IF' instead of 'WHY'. The point being that he created something dangerous, more dangerous than him, and beyond his control. He had the opportunity to destroy it, and for the sake of his own twisted morals he let the creature live. It then destroyed everything he cared about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonR24 Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 The metaphor of the book is someone meddling in things beyond his comprehension, and asking 'IF' instead of 'WHY'. The point being that he created something dangerous, more dangerous than him, and beyond his control. He had the opportunity to destroy it, and for the sake of his own twisted morals he let the creature live. It then destroyed everything he cared about. Personally I'd argue they know exactly what they were doing when they created terrorist factions to fight proxy wars abroad but sticking with the Frankenstein theme, even if they didn't know what they were doing, don't you think the creator deserves the wrath of their creation if they weren't at least intelligent or caring enough to think of the consequences. I think of the consequences of my actions. I feel that the government should be held accountable and punished for it, that includes all heads of security services involved in those operations as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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