The Islamist attack in Paris 13-11-15

[j_jza80]

I once watched a university debate with Medhi Hassan. He's an articulate, witty, apparently intelligent individual.

 

He was easily winning the debate, until he lost it for himself by admitting he believes in flying horses. Completely contrary to facts, evidence, and centuries of Darwinism.

 

I still enjoy watching him put very good points across, but he is somewhat irrational. Large pinch of salt required.

[imi]

They are going to do very little of substance.

 

Labour, the Conservatives and the SNP care more about getting reelected than doing anything of substance. As Labour are learning to their expense, first with Miliband and now with Corbyn, this is a high stakes popularity contest.

 

To do what needs to be done to tackle extremism and radicalisation, the government would have to do things that the left would automatically brand as racist and/or discriminatory. None of them have the balls for it.

 

You and I can both agree on this - a smokescreen democracy - corrupt to its core - ineffective

 

recommend watching the videos that i linked to - would be good to gather your views.

[j_jza80]

recommend watching the videos that i linked to - would be good to gather your views.

 

I thought the points brought up were right. Drone strikes, night raids, torture etc have just fed into the extremists propaganda machine. Though equally, there seems to be an assumption here that everyone who has turned to extremism as a result of the aforementioned was not an extremist before, and never would be. I don't agree with that. I would say that we threw fuel on a large fire that was getting bigger anyway.

 

Us bombing Syria is not going to help on its own, and will just perpetuate the cycle of violence. That's not to say I'm in the same camp ad these Stop the War protests. Not fighting for the sake of of not fighting, when there is a lot at stake, is cowardice.

 

Troops are needed, rebuilding the country is needed, and education is needed. Democracy? I fear 'fair' elections would just follow in Egypt footsteps. And I don't know of a decent alternative.

 

There is no doubt the world is more dangerous now than before 911.

 

Does that mean we should stand aside and let them get on with it? We are already hated by these extremists, and yes, our countries have fed into that. But that resentment isn't going to just vanish if we don't get involved.

[Chris Wilson]

Michael Scheuer is the chap whose name escaped me. Here, and I am sure Imi will like this, is his latest posting that I could find:

 

On cutting the crap, breaking the Caliphate’s back, and focusing on America

 

By mike | Published: November 18, 2015

Honoring Paris’s dead and wounded is now being done with crocodile tears, candles, moments of silence, crowds of strangers holding hands, pledges of solidarity, the endless, pro forma singing of national anthems, and bouquets of followers mounded up as colorful, if wilting, temples to the dead.

None of this nonsense honors anyone, it is simply another meaningless iteration of the made-for-TV, post-Islamist-attack “Festival of the Dead”, an event to which Westerners seem to be intensely attached and are now institutionalizing. After all, it’s a chance to get outdoors, walk a bit, and mingle with other self-professed and mourning lovers of humanity. It is, in fact, all hogwash. It allows Western people to feel they have done something to contribute to victory over the enemy when in fact they have done less to honor the dead and destroy their killers than their national governments — and that truly is quite an underachievement.

But there is a time-honored and effective way to honor the Paris dead, as well as the U.S. and Western soldiers whose lives and limbs have been wasted since 2001 by national leaders who did not intend to win. If the United States and the West really do not want to do the smartest thing and encourage a Sunni-Shia sectarian war, then it has the near-term option of destroying all those facilities in Syria and Iraq that are essential to the Islamic State’s effort to build a state or, in their words, rebuild the Caliphate.

Currently, IS is in possession of:

–Highways and bridges

–Portions of a railway system

–Fleets of tanker trucks, construction vehicles and machinery, and farming equipment

–Cell phone tower networks and overhead power lines

–Improved waterways and irrigation canals/systems

–Potable water and urban sanitation systems

–Hydroelectric dams and reservoirs

–Airfields

–Grain silos

–Mills for processing wheat and other grains

–Facilities for mining minerals

–Oil fields, wells, and refineries

–Gas fields, wells, and distribution systems

–Pipelines for fuel, gas, and water

–Factories, government buildings, warehouses, and military bases

–Farmland that is growing crops

–Hospitals

–Universities

–Police stations, military barracks, office buildings, and hotels that are used to store arms and house fighters

Each of these things, needless to say, is part of the IS military effort. They are even more important, however, to its effort to build a state, fund an economy, attract foreign volunteers, and feed, employ, and care for a population. They all are also wonderfully visible, cannot be readily moved or hidden, and are just the kind of targets that Western air forces can annihilate in an air campaign of relatively short duration. For the first time since 1996, the Islamists have acquired a large and valuable set of physical assets that they cannot afford to lose, and they are assets that are perfectly suited to the West’s conventional military forces and so will give Western militaries a respite from the folly of trying to defeat IS by killing their fighters one or two at a time.

Destroy the items listed above and you send IS back to being just very good Islamist insurgents; still dangerous, but no longer advancing the reconstruction of the Caliphate.* Moreover, the loss of these productive assets via air attacks, and the high numbers of civilians that surely will die therein, will create an unhappy and restive population prone to rebellion in the regions IS controls.

In such a situation, IS leaders will face enemies in each direction they turn, and will have lost the means of appealing to the young Muslims — and many older ones — with the powerfully alluring idea and nascent reality of rebuilding the Caliphate.

For the West, the pulverized, smoldering ruins of these state-building assets, which IS has preserved because they cannot be replaced, and the moldering corpses of thousands who have cast their lot with IS or are simply present, will amount to its first strategic success against the Islamists since this religious war began in 1996.

For the United States to undertake this campaign as a unilateral mission — let Russian and French warplanes waste ordnance breaking concrete at Raqqah, and the rest of the EU cowers behind cheap bellicosity — would be a chance to, for now, break the back of IS’s caliphate-restoring effort. More important, the mission’s success would allow the United States to truthfully claim it had done its part militarily and return home to a permanent policy of non-intervention, taking none of the resulting refugees, ignoring screeches from the human-rights mafia, the EU, the UN, and the new-age Pope, and spending not a penny to rebuild anything in Iraq or Syria.

By attacking and then walking away, the United States would have lessened the IS threat for all and leave it up to Putin, Hollande, Cameron and any other Western leader to decide if he or she wants to stay engaged in the fight against IS instead of getting out, cleaning up the Islamists in their own nations, and letting the Shia-Sunni sectarian war flourish while watching the two sides devour each other.

So following, for the United States, is a doable, unilateral, and non-time consuming plan with which to execute the just mentioned campaign, permanently extract the United States from the Muslim world, and let that world go to the hell it has been preparing for itself for a millennium. Let me admit that I have no military experience, but, hey, look where the West Pointers have us after nearly twenty years of failed war fighting and abject loses in Iraq and Afghanistan.

–1.) The U.S. president orders the U.S. military to prepare an air campaign against the targets listed above. If the U.S. military is worth the money taxpayers have invested – at this point, an open question — all the targets on the list will already have been located and prioritized. A little time will be needed to move additional aircraft into range, say, three or four weeks.**

–2.) When the U.S. military tells the president it is ready to attack, the president directs the secretary of state to officially recognize the Islamic State regime as a legitimate nation state and warmly welcome it into the vicious jungle that has been created by that useless, effete, and war-causing entity called the “International Community.”

–3.) On the next day, the president calls a joint session of Congress to meet within 48 hours.

–4.) When the session convenes, the president asks for a declaration of war against the Islamic State and is given that constitutionally required declaration.

–5.) The president then orders the military to attack, and remains silent until the military reports its mission is accomplished.

–6.) With that victory in hand, the president addresses the nation, announces victory and the end of America’s war in Syria/Iraq. He then describes what the campaign accomplished, what the campaign cost in lives and money, and why Americans would no longer see their government militarily intervening anywhere in the world unless the United States is attacked or an imminent threat needs destroying. He should end the speech by saying to Americans, “Good night, God bless you, and God Bless America First”.

All told, such a U.S. air campaign ought to succeed as it plays to the U.S. military’s skills and will keep U.S. casualties low. If successful, it allows the United States to bid farewell to the Middle East – leaving it to whoever is stupid enough to want to be involved — and begin to focus on genuine U.S. national interests, like reducing the debt, controlling the borders, rebuilding the conventional military, severely limiting immigration, withdrawing from NATO, evicting illegal aliens, eliminating domestic Islamist organizations, and generally minding our own business.

[Chris Wilson]

Notes:

 

*IS and al-Qaeda will still have forces elsewhere in the world and so will be troublesome. But the lesson taught by the above U.S. air campaign — which is, and ought to be, Americans are overwhelmingly powerful, indiscriminate killers, and a little bit crazy — will not be lost on the Islamists. They will keep contending for Yemen, which the Saudis have made a mess off and should be left to fix; Libya, which is a poisonous gift to Europe from the UK and France — Clinton and Obama simply playing adolescent morons whose democracy mongering gave cover to the Europeans — ought to be left to them to resolve; Egypt, where the Russians seem eager to take on a losing situation; and Afghanistan, where both the Russians and Chinese have no choice but to fight to keep the Islamists out of Central Asia. Regarding Europe, the Islamists have the upper hand there and may win, but only because the Europeans seem to have no pride in their national identities, no respect for, or passion to preserve what their civilization has accomplished over more than two millennia, and no real will to kill the bad guys and save themselves. In non-Maghreb Africa, Americans must attain energy self-sufficiency and thank God for the eternal presence of the Atlantic Ocean.

 

**The only American opponents of such action would be U.S. oil companies who lust for oil and gas from the fields IS holds in Syria and Iraq; U.S. arms makers who sell weapons in the region; Neoconservatives and Israel-Firsters who want endless U.S. engagement in the region so American blood can be shed to protect Israel; and the media, the so-called Peace Movement, and the college campuses, all of which are wholly owned subsidiaries of the Democratic Party. Opponents like these are all the more reason to undertake the campaign, win, and then come home to democratically or otherwise defeat the vermin.

[imi]

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/12316598_10153690913808076_1102056992289477317_n.jpg?oh=7883606008765dd08c3c932aa377d489&oe=56F08FA6

[j_jza80]

The local airforces are equipped with the necessary aircraft to do that. Turkey has the second largest armed force in NATO. Iran has F4 phantoms, which are very capable bomb trucks. Saudi has typhoons, F15s and various other aircraft, and other local forces have Typhoons, F16s, Mirages etc.

 

But the neighbouring countries either don't want the destruction of IS, or are happy to hide behind the coat tails of the US. They probably quietly acknowledge the fact that there are large numbers of their own population who are cheering for Isis.

[j_jza80]

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/12316598_10153690913808076_1102056992289477317_n.jpg?oh=7883606008765dd08c3c932aa377d489&oe=56F08FA6

 

Exactly. It's about time we cut ties with countries that legitimise such barbaric practices, both officially and culturally.

[imi]

I thought the points brought up were right. Drone strikes, night raids, torture etc have just fed into the extremists propaganda machine. Though equally, there seems to be an assumption here that everyone who has turned to extremism as a result of the aforementioned was not an extremist before, and never would be. I don't agree with that. I would say that we threw fuel on a large fire that was getting bigger anyway.

 

Not everyone.

 

The US DFA agreed that there are many bathists in ISIL with evidence that many others are not even religious - contradicts to what we have been told by the media - although we do now know that the Parisian nutters were not practicing muslims either -so something to think about.

 

Fire getting bigger cause we (US) kept fuelling it with intelligence, with arms, training (Fact as confirmed by the former US DFA Head).

 

Us bombing Syria is not going to help on its own, and will just perpetuate the cycle of violence. That's not to say I'm in the same camp ad these Stop the War protests. Not fighting for the sake of of not fighting, when there is a lot at stake, is cowardice.

 

All sounds novel - however based on the track record of the US, UK, France and others meddling with this region since 1990 - these (WE) are NOT the right people to help this country for the sake of its people (I don't by this false empathy when we don't give a toss about Palestinians, Egyptians, Libyans, Iraqis or even Saudis (outside of the puppet royal family) + others) - our powers to be have ulterior motives - perhaps its a land grab for a greater IS (israel) state.

 

Troops are needed, rebuilding the country is needed, and education is needed. Democracy? I fear 'fair' elections would just follow in Egypt footsteps. And I don't know of a decent alternative.

 

like said above - no track record of helping any other country that has been invaded and leaving it as a better place. Saddam Iraq was a paradise compared to what it is today and that is saying something cause the guy was a CIA propped tyrant.

 

There is no doubt the world is more dangerous now than before 911.

 

agree - its good for business - based on my earlier post about the business model.

 

Does that mean we should stand aside and let them get on with it? We are already hated by these extremists, and yes, our countries have fed into that. But that resentment isn't going to just vanish if we don't get involved.

 

no, covered this already - havent seen anything in this thread or otherwise to change my mind, in fact the more i look into it the more i am convinced that its the wrong thing to do.

 

dont see how killing thousands of innocent people thousands of miles away turning a country into rubble will help protect us at home.

 

Our Govts are being disingenuous and we shouldn't fall for their BS.

[imi]

Exactly. It's about time we cut ties with countries that legitimise such barbaric practices, both officially and culturally.

 

and yet - it is ignored by all western powers......should makes us all ask questions - why?

[Kendo11]

Michael Scheuer is the chap whose name escaped me. Here, and I am sure Imi will like this, is his latest posting that I could find:

 

On cutting the crap, breaking the Caliphate’s back, and focusing on America

 

By mike | Published: November 18, 2015

Honoring Paris’s dead and wounded is now being done with crocodile tears, candles, moments of silence, crowds of strangers holding hands, pledges of solidarity, the endless, pro forma singing of national anthems, and bouquets of followers mounded up as colorful, if wilting, temples to the dead.

None of this nonsense honors anyone, it is simply another meaningless iteration of the made-for-TV, post-Islamist-attack “Festival of the Dead”, an event to which Westerners seem to be intensely attached and are now institutionalizing. After all, it’s a chance to get outdoors, walk a bit, and mingle with other self-professed and mourning lovers of humanity. It is, in fact, all hogwash. It allows Western people to feel they have done something to contribute to victory over the enemy when in fact they have done less to honor the dead and destroy their killers than their national governments — and that truly is quite an underachievement.

But there is a time-honored and effective way to honor the Paris dead, as well as the U.S. and Western soldiers whose lives and limbs have been wasted since 2001 by national leaders who did not intend to win. If the United States and the West really do not want to do the smartest thing and encourage a Sunni-Shia sectarian war, then it has the near-term option of destroying all those facilities in Syria and Iraq that are essential to the Islamic State’s effort to build a state or, in their words, rebuild the Caliphate.

Currently, IS is in possession of:

–Highways and bridges

–Portions of a railway system

–Fleets of tanker trucks, construction vehicles and machinery, and farming equipment

–Cell phone tower networks and overhead power lines

–Improved waterways and irrigation canals/systems

–Potable water and urban sanitation systems

–Hydroelectric dams and reservoirs

–Airfields

–Grain silos

–Mills for processing wheat and other grains

–Facilities for mining minerals

–Oil fields, wells, and refineries

–Gas fields, wells, and distribution systems

–Pipelines for fuel, gas, and water

–Factories, government buildings, warehouses, and military bases

–Farmland that is growing crops

–Hospitals

–Universities

–Police stations, military barracks, office buildings, and hotels that are used to store arms and house fighters

Each of these things, needless to say, is part of the IS military effort. They are even more important, however, to its effort to build a state, fund an economy, attract foreign volunteers, and feed, employ, and care for a population. They all are also wonderfully visible, cannot be readily moved or hidden, and are just the kind of targets that Western air forces can annihilate in an air campaign of relatively short duration. For the first time since 1996, the Islamists have acquired a large and valuable set of physical assets that they cannot afford to lose, and they are assets that are perfectly suited to the West’s conventional military forces and so will give Western militaries a respite from the folly of trying to defeat IS by killing their fighters one or two at a time.

Destroy the items listed above and you send IS back to being just very good Islamist insurgents; still dangerous, but no longer advancing the reconstruction of the Caliphate.* Moreover, the loss of these productive assets via air attacks, and the high numbers of civilians that surely will die therein, will create an unhappy and restive population prone to rebellion in the regions IS controls.

In such a situation, IS leaders will face enemies in each direction they turn, and will have lost the means of appealing to the young Muslims — and many older ones — with the powerfully alluring idea and nascent reality of rebuilding the Caliphate.

For the West, the pulverized, smoldering ruins of these state-building assets, which IS has preserved because they cannot be replaced, and the moldering corpses of thousands who have cast their lot with IS or are simply present, will amount to its first strategic success against the Islamists since this religious war began in 1996.

For the United States to undertake this campaign as a unilateral mission — let Russian and French warplanes waste ordnance breaking concrete at Raqqah, and the rest of the EU cowers behind cheap bellicosity — would be a chance to, for now, break the back of IS’s caliphate-restoring effort. More important, the mission’s success would allow the United States to truthfully claim it had done its part militarily and return home to a permanent policy of non-intervention, taking none of the resulting refugees, ignoring screeches from the human-rights mafia, the EU, the UN, and the new-age Pope, and spending not a penny to rebuild anything in Iraq or Syria.

By attacking and then walking away, the United States would have lessened the IS threat for all and leave it up to Putin, Hollande, Cameron and any other Western leader to decide if he or she wants to stay engaged in the fight against IS instead of getting out, cleaning up the Islamists in their own nations, and letting the Shia-Sunni sectarian war flourish while watching the two sides devour each other.

So following, for the United States, is a doable, unilateral, and non-time consuming plan with which to execute the just mentioned campaign, permanently extract the United States from the Muslim world, and let that world go to the hell it has been preparing for itself for a millennium. Let me admit that I have no military experience, but, hey, look where the West Pointers have us after nearly twenty years of failed war fighting and abject loses in Iraq and Afghanistan.

–1.) The U.S. president orders the U.S. military to prepare an air campaign against the targets listed above. If the U.S. military is worth the money taxpayers have invested – at this point, an open question — all the targets on the list will already have been located and prioritized. A little time will be needed to move additional aircraft into range, say, three or four weeks.**

–2.) When the U.S. military tells the president it is ready to attack, the president directs the secretary of state to officially recognize the Islamic State regime as a legitimate nation state and warmly welcome it into the vicious jungle that has been created by that useless, effete, and war-causing entity called the “International Community.”

–3.) On the next day, the president calls a joint session of Congress to meet within 48 hours.

–4.) When the session convenes, the president asks for a declaration of war against the Islamic State and is given that constitutionally required declaration.

–5.) The president then orders the military to attack, and remains silent until the military reports its mission is accomplished.

–6.) With that victory in hand, the president addresses the nation, announces victory and the end of America’s war in Syria/Iraq. He then describes what the campaign accomplished, what the campaign cost in lives and money, and why Americans would no longer see their government militarily intervening anywhere in the world unless the United States is attacked or an imminent threat needs destroying. He should end the speech by saying to Americans, “Good night, God bless you, and God Bless America First”.

All told, such a U.S. air campaign ought to succeed as it plays to the U.S. military’s skills and will keep U.S. casualties low. If successful, it allows the United States to bid farewell to the Middle East – leaving it to whoever is stupid enough to want to be involved — and begin to focus on genuine U.S. national interests, like reducing the debt, controlling the borders, rebuilding the conventional military, severely limiting immigration, withdrawing from NATO, evicting illegal aliens, eliminating domestic Islamist organizations, and generally minding our own business.

 

So basically, drop a shit load of bombs and run away and see what happens?

 

Is that guy for real?

[j_jza80]

and yet - it is ignored by all western powers......should makes us all ask questions - why?

 

Oil and money. That is all Saudi, Qatar, Dubai etc is. They contribute nothing to the world other than greed, if it weren't for the oil I bet people would struggle to place them on a map.

 

As you said before, follow the money trail. In this case, it's lined with crude oil.

[Chris Wilson]

He is, and has a big following. Disassociate the US from Israel and from reliance on Middle Eastern oil. Get the economy back on keel, kick out illegals and trouble makers. Keep the doors shut.

 

Easier said than done of course, should you like the idea.

[Kendo11]

He is, and has a big following. Disassociate the US from Israel and from reliance on Middle Eastern oil. Get the economy back on keel, kick out illegals and trouble makers. Keep the doors shut.

 

Easier said than done of course, should you like the idea.

That he has a big following does not surprise me considering the American mentality.

[Nemesis]

 

There is no doubt the world is more dangerous now than before 911.

 

The world maybe, closer to home though... this graph almost covers my lifetime and apparently I'm safer now than I ever was.

 

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/3720174/original.jpg

 

Doesn't get us anywhere but just saying...

[Kendo11]

Oil and money. That is all Saudi, Qatar, Dubai etc is. They contribute nothing to the world other than greed, if it weren't for the oil I bet people would struggle to place them on a map.

 

As you said before, follow the money trail. In this case, it's lined with crude oil.

Not difficult to follow if you look in the right places.

 

Too much referencing mainstream news and nutter commentators lately.

 

RSS (Raqqa is being slaughtered silently) are the only reliable source of news from the is de facto capital.

 

From their recent investigation:

 

*IS owns the oil fields in Syria AND Iraq, it sells the oil, taxes the refinery and taxes the transport.

 

*The oil fields & refineries are run by the same staff pre-takeover, those being loyal Assad staff

 

*IS do not employ any of their own senior staff to run the oil operations

 

*The few refineries not owned by IS or Assad and are privately owned are still taxed by IS

 

*IS have their own vehicles to transport the crude oil from sites in Iraq to refineries in Syria

 

*The trucks that transport crude oil from sites within Syria to refineries within Syria are usually privately owned

 

*The coalition bombing is having an effect on the transport of oil but not on it being refined and extracted

 

*IS and Assad coordinate when it comes to oil and gas sales and supplies

 

*IS's military vehicles can only run on a higher quality of fuel, which comes in return from regime controlled areas

 

*Assad has created a safe corridor of travel for the oil & gas logistics operation.

 

Link to article in Arabic: http://www.raqqa-sl.com/?p=2248

 

Meanwhile at least 45 civilians have been killed today in a market in Idlib as some Russian decided it would be a good idea.

[imi]

Meanwhile at least 45 civilians have been killed today in a market in Idlib as some Russian decided it would be a good idea.

 

wonder if we will be singing the Syrian national anthem in all our upcoming sporting fixtures and observe a minutes silence?

 

 

As for the Oil - apparently 2M barrels per day is being sold by IS - who is buying that and what are our Govt doing to stem the cash flow?

[imi]

Oil and money. That is all Saudi, Qatar, Dubai etc is. They contribute nothing to the world other than greed, if it weren't for the oil I bet people would struggle to place them on a map.

 

As you said before, follow the money trail. In this case, it's lined with crude oil.

 

Yes - agree - however I hope you can see that this excuse is not good enough. WE (our govt) are indirectly contributing to the promotion of radicalism by supporting these puppet countries.

[j_jza80]

Yes, but they are far from alone. I wonder how many communities, academic institutions, businesses, mosques, investors and lobbyists etc have received funds from these countries?

 

Governments do have some responsibility, but so do we. We are far too reliant on questionable nations for money, oil, manufacturing, custom etc.

[Kendo11]

Yes, but they are far from alone. I wonder how many communities, academic institutions, businesses, mosques, investors and lobbyists etc have received funds from these countries?

 

Governments do have some responsibility, but so do we. We are far too reliant on questionable nations for money, oil, manufacturing, custom etc.

Should that be a reason to repeat what we've done before and go in bombing though?

 

Latest count over 75 civilians dead today in Idlib solely due to Russian air strikes.

 

They destroyed an age old military installation - a bread factory and market.

 

Won't be long before western bombings are more lethal to the civilian population than isis.

[j_jza80]

As I said earlier in the thread, I don't support us bombing.

 

But military action, by someone is going to be needed. I am yet to see any regional country step up.

[j_jza80]

The unelected EU leaders have really lost their marbles.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34957830

 

The EU guide to fix a migration crisis: open your borders to a country that has plenty of its own terror issues, has a population of 70m people, is throwing away it's secular heritage on favour of religious conservatism, and restricts free press. It also happens to have a porous border with Syria. And we're paying them £2b for it...

 

On the plus side, it has basically gifted the upcoming referendum to the out campaign, but that doesn't save the rest of Europe, which is frankly going to get swamped.

 

Turkeys population is roughly equal to that of all the countries that have joined in the last 15 years combined. They will also immediately become the second most powerful country in the EU. And they're not even on Europe.

[Kendo11]

Oh dear Mr Corbyn.

 

Referring to the genocide that occurred during the Kosovan conflict as "not really happening".

 

Press will have a field day.

 

http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2004-05/392

[imi]

Yes, but they are far from alone. I wonder how many communities, academic institutions, businesses, mosques, investors and lobbyists etc have received funds from these countries?

 

Governments do have some responsibility, but so do we. We are far too reliant on questionable nations for money, oil, manufacturing, custom etc.

 

In this case as it is about national security, counter terrorism & our citizen's safety let alone human rights abuse etc in their countries - the precedence has to be set by OUR Govt - expecting others to take the 1st step is simply passing the blame. These and other similar actions would resonate better with the civilized world rather than the usual ineffective military action that has failed us over the past 25 years.

[imi]

The unelected EU leaders have really lost their marbles.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34957830

 

The EU guide to fix a migration crisis: open your borders to a country that has plenty of its own terror issues, has a population of 70m people, is throwing away it's secular heritage on favour of religious conservatism, and restricts free press. It also happens to have a porous border with Syria. And we're paying them £2b for it...

 

On the plus side, it has basically gifted the upcoming referendum to the out campaign, but that doesn't save the rest of Europe, which is frankly going to get swamped.

 

Turkeys population is roughly equal to that of all the countries that have joined in the last 15 years combined. They will also immediately become the second most powerful country in the EU. And they're not even on Europe.

 

heard on LBC that the draft proposal highlights including Turkey in the Schengen