Sanya Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 All this situation sounds like they have 2 options - take democracy or be invaded. Very democratic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 ??? By country I was referring to Islamic state. Which is effectively a country now, and if we stand by and allow it's formation it will remain so. sensationalism - there is no IS country. By your rationale, your ambivalence towards the Caliphate could be seen as an endorsement of it's inception and ascension. Seems like you have been suckered into the media hype. you say beheading by ISIS - what about Saudi Arabia, these take place every week.......whats the difference? western lives vs non-western? you say caliphate - again, the finger points at Saudi, Qatar - the origin of this latest evil - these two seem to be the main funding and idealogical salafi and wahhabi sources. earlier I made some suggestions on how to address the parasite that is ISIS. Obviously no one wants to follow that line of thought as its bad for business - instead you military folks want to shoot your firecrackers and blow the whole place to bits murdering thousands along the way. why and how has the govt suddenly made £2B available in order to prep for war? how does that work? to me it seems like it there are good returns to be made here - back to the business model. Paris - the terrorists were EU citizens and yet we are planning to bomb Syria - We have terrorists within and yet we are bombing Syria. I find it amazing that we have "civilized" people trying to justify another war - after the repeated failures over the past 25 years. Failures that have put us in this position in the 1st place. The lack of logic is baffling. the concern for the poor Syrian people - superficial and counter productive. Like they say Military personnel are trained to take orders and follow blindly - seems like i'm having a debate with a brick wall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 Where do you get this information from? We didn't destroy Iraq. We did rebuild it, gave them an infrastructure, gave them a police force, army and navy. Trained them, gave the weapons, money, buildings etc Gave them courts, trained judges. Gave them democracy, they elected their own government. Built schools, businesses etc. The drama was terrorists, where the majority weren't even Iraqi. After we left, which was after the agreed date of aid it was fine, until Isis got a foot in the door. This is fact, I've seen it with my own eyes, helped do many of the things mentioned and helped train their army. I have good Iraqi friends that tell me how it really is in Iraq for the average Joe. Their story corroborates this. you look at things from your perspective at that moment in time - sadly the reality is somewhat different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendo11 Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 sensationalism - there is no IS country. Seems like you have been suckered into the media hype. you say beheading by ISIS - what about Saudi Arabia, these take place every week.......whats the difference? western lives vs non-western? you say caliphate - again, the finger points at Saudi, Qatar - the origin of this latest evil - these two seem to be the main funding and idealogical salafi and wahhabi sources. earlier I made some suggestions on how to address the parasite that is ISIS. Obviously no one wants to follow that line of thought as its bad for business - instead you military folks want to shoot your firecrackers and blow the whole place to bits murdering thousands along the way. why and how has the govt suddenly made £2B available in order to prep for war? how does that work? to me it seems like it there are good returns to be made here - back to the business model. Paris - the terrorists were EU citizens and yet we are planning to bomb Syria - We have terrorists within and yet we are bombing Syria. I find it amazing that we have "civilized" people trying to justify another war - after the repeated failures over the past 25 years. Failures that have put us in this position in the 1st place. The lack of logic is baffling. the concern for the poor Syrian people - superficial and counter productive. Like they say Military personnel are trained to take orders and follow blindly - seems like i'm having a debate with a brick wall. Imi, I get a lot of your logic and agree that military action will (and quite clearly is) making the situation for civilians in particular much much worse. But the UN are utterly irrelevant to people like Assad and the gulf states. They may as well not exist. They are laughed at and derided and aside from rhetoric can't wield any power. As for us taking on Saudi Arabia and Qatar, that's just not going to happen. There are trillions and trillions and trillions of dollars in finances, oil, and arms sales that are above Camerons stature despite how he presents us as somehow being in the same league as the US on the world stage. There are more powerful people behind the scenes getting very rich from what is going on, and every single nation either directly or indirectly involved has a conflict of interest somewhere in the whole situation. What must happen, in my eyes, is that Assad must be removed from power. Forget diplomacy or diplomatic pressure or transitional governments. He will not be going anywhere while Putin and Iran are propping him up. So he needs to be removed by other means. Whether it by drone or something happening on the ground, he needs to be removed from the situation. Only then will Putin maybe come round the table so a concerted effort, led by the indigenous people on the ground, can be coordinated to wipe isis from the face of the earth. After that it's difficult to say. It could quite easily be in as complicated a situation as it is now but at least the civilian death toll, rising refugee numbers, and absolutely shattered infrastructure might start to improve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abz Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 And allowing the existence of a country that cuts off westerners heads for fun, and forces people to convert to religion under pain of death is not something we should be allowing in the 21St century. Think you have failed to mentioned that is a small part, which you mentioned many times in this thread. Just reitarate they have done much worse things to Muslims and the figures are so much higher (talking in the hundreds of thousands, not under 100). So let's put things in prespective and not join the fear mongering the press have been doing lately. The biggest people at risk our are Muslims by a considerable amount, period. sensationalism - there is no IS country. Seems like you have been suckered into the media hype. you say beheading by ISIS - what about Saudi Arabia, these take place every week.......whats the difference? western lives vs non-western? you say caliphate - again, the finger points at Saudi, Qatar - the origin of this latest evil - these two seem to be the main funding and idealogical salafi and wahhabi sources. earlier I made some suggestions on how to address the parasite that is ISIS. Obviously no one wants to follow that line of thought as its bad for business - instead you military folks want to shoot your firecrackers and blow the whole place to bits murdering thousands along the way. why and how has the govt suddenly made £2B available in order to prep for war? how does that work? to me it seems like it there are good returns to be made here - back to the business model. Paris - the terrorists were EU citizens and yet we are planning to bomb Syria - We have terrorists within and yet we are bombing Syria. I find it amazing that we have "civilized" people trying to justify another war - after the repeated failures over the past 25 years. Failures that have put us in this position in the 1st place. The lack of logic is baffling. the concern for the poor Syrian people - superficial and counter productive. Like they say Military personnel are trained to take orders and follow blindly - seems like i'm having a debate with a brick wall. Imi, I get a lot of your logic and agree that military action will (and quite clearly is) making the situation for civilians in particular much much worse. But the UN are utterly irrelevant to people like Assad and the gulf states. They may as well not exist. They are laughed at and derided and aside from rhetoric can't wield any power. As for us taking on Saudi Arabia and Qatar, that's just not going to happen. There are trillions and trillions and trillions of dollars in finances, oil, and arms sales that are above Camerons stature despite how he presents us as somehow being in the same league as the US on the world stage. There are more powerful people behind the scenes getting very rich from what is going on, and every single nation either directly or indirectly involved has a conflict of interest somewhere in the whole situation. What must happen, in my eyes, is that Assad must be removed from power. Forget diplomacy or diplomatic pressure or transitional governments. He will not be going anywhere while Putin and Iran are propping him up. So he needs to be removed by other means. Whether it by drone or something happening on the ground, he needs to be removed from the situation. Only then will Putin maybe come round the table so a concerted effort, led by the indigenous people on the ground, can be coordinated to wipe isis from the face of the earth. After that it's difficult to say. It could quite easily be in as complicated a situation as it is now but at least the civilian death toll, rising refugee numbers, and absolutely shattered infrastructure might start to improve. Both posts are bang on. Saudi & Qatar won't be touched even if they admit providing the Dash with weapons, it would be bad for business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted November 25, 2015 Author Share Posted November 25, 2015 sensationalism - there is no IS country. Definition of country: A nation with its own government, occupying a particular territory http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/country I would personally add to that definition that a country must have an economy, which IS do, even if it is based in the black market. Seems like you have been suckered into the media hype. you say beheading by ISIS - what about Saudi Arabia, these take place every week.......whats the difference? western lives vs non-western? you say caliphate - again, the finger points at Saudi, Qatar - the origin of this latest evil - these two seem to be the main funding and idealogical salafi and wahhabi sources. I 100% agree. earlier I made some suggestions on how to address the parasite that is ISIS. Obviously no one wants to follow that line of thought as its bad for business - instead you military folks want to shoot your firecrackers and blow the whole place to bits murdering thousands along the way. You made some very good points, which I agree with. And they would certainly deal a blow to underlying causes of IS. But they are their own entity now, and quite proficient at blackmarket dealing. Economic sanctions alone would have a limited effect. But what to do about the immediate situation? Are you saying that IS should be left alone? Occupying land with millions of people? I don't get the logic of preventing a few hundred / thousand deaths at the expense of millions of people suffering? And lets not forget, ISIS are killing far more people than the bombs: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/tikrit-isis-mass-graves-iraqi-forensic-teams-begin-excavating-sites-believed-to-hold-bodies-of-up-to-10159034.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-politics/12000148/Islamic-State-sex-slaves-Sinjar-mass-graves-show-what-were-fighting.html why and how has the govt suddenly made £2B available in order to prep for war? how does that work? to me it seems like it there are good returns to be made here - back to the business model. There is always money for emergencies. You would hope that if there was an outbreak of some terrible fatal virus, the government would provide funds. But they seem to be able to find extra money for the NHS every year without fail, so I don't begrudge them spending some money on our armed forces. After all, defense is the first responsibility of government, a fact that is oft overlooked. Paris - the terrorists were EU citizens and yet we are planning to bomb Syria - We have terrorists within and yet we are bombing Syria. I find it amazing that we have "civilized" people trying to justify another war - after the repeated failures over the past 25 years. Failures that have put us in this position in the 1st place. The lack of logic is baffling. the concern for the poor Syrian people - superficial and counter productive. Like they say Military personnel are trained to take orders and follow blindly - seems like i'm having a debate with a brick wall. Syria as it was doesn't exist any more, IS are seeing to that. They are killing and oppressing it people, driving out the survivors, and destroying all of its cultural heritage. Syria now is just a stretch of land along the coast, which is under the control of Assad. You seem to be labouring under the idea that we are to blame for everything happening there. We are partially responsible, but these issues have their roots long before Western interventions. You can see the causes all the way back before the Ottoman empire, before Islam, right back to the days of the Roman empire, and their adoption of Christianity. You're also overlooking the Arab Spring, which we wrongly interpreted as a march towards democracy. It has now been shown that it was a march towards hardline Islamism. And then there is the oppression of the Assad regime. Yes, we have to bare responsibility for our part, but trying to squarely blame the West for all this is counterproductive, as it feeds into the rhetoric of ISIS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted November 25, 2015 Author Share Posted November 25, 2015 Think you have failed to mentioned that is a small part, which you mentioned many times in this thread. Just reitarate they have done much worse things to Muslims and the figures are so much higher (talking in the hundreds of thousands, not under 100). So let's put things in prespective and not join the fear mongering the press have been doing lately. The biggest people at risk our are Muslims by a considerable amount, period. You'll find a made that very point earlier in the thread. In fact, if you look at all of the conflicts around the planet at the moment, I would wager that a great many of them are muslims killing other muslims. With that in mind, it is worth remembering how many 'muslim countries' are causing these problems, and how few are doing anything constructive about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted November 25, 2015 Author Share Posted November 25, 2015 Superpowers are using it as a proxy war & show of force & advertising arena, and you've got an extremist group equivalent to the early days of the Nazis brainwashing people, marginalising an entire religious group and sitting on an annual income from oil of $500million. ISIS are potentially worse than the Nazis IMO. The Nazis didn't have the internet and social media to invade the hearts and minds of impressionable people across the globe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Massey Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 I have good Iraqi friends that tell me how it really is in Iraq for the average Joe. Their story corroborates this. you look at things from your perspective at that moment in time - sadly the reality is somewhat different. Now do their story mention now, or several years ago when we left and all was fine to a degree. Wasn't perfect but wasn't destroyed. It's not me who sees it from my perspective, it's the world including Iraqis who see it for the truth, Truth of the matter is that locals would personally thank us. Local villages held tributes for us, would welcome us with open arms. Yet we destroyed it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendo11 Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 No wonder the Russians strayed into Turkish territory. I hear they got these in last year's black Friday deals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted November 25, 2015 Author Share Posted November 25, 2015 I've seen these before, and they were quickly dismissed by a Russian who knows much more about military aircraft than me. Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if they were real. The Russian armed forces, while having some truly excellent, state of the art aircraft, are still heavily reliant on old Soviet era technology. As the SU24 fleet is due for retirement, I doubt they will have received any cockpit upgrades. I should think the TU22 and SU25 aircraft the VVS are using are similarly old tech, though the SU30 MKI they have based in Syria really are brilliant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendo11 Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Nice upgrade for the supra. "what's your latest upgrade?" "Oh I've got a navigation system from an all weather fighter bomber installed!" "Erm.......that's a Garmin" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted November 25, 2015 Author Share Posted November 25, 2015 They must be okay in a Supra if they can keep track of an aircraft capable of almost mach 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendo11 Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Apart from near borders Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendo11 Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Just seen this on twitter under the heading "man inadvertently comes up with the perfect summary of the middle east situation" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 If Turkey is granted EU membership, does that not mean "refugees" only have to get over the border from Syria, Iraq or Iran into Turkey to gain free EU travel privileges? Personally I think granting them EU membership would be insanity. I have often gone on about tribalism in these hell holes, and the more I see of the various Turkish and Syrian factions the more I feel justified to have done so. Without a dictator, benevolent or malevolent, these places are sheer anarchy. I agree wholeheartedly with Imi though, we need a Draconian clamp down on home grown anarchists, extremists and returning terrorists, which would probably be beyond the palate of the government and certainly the opposition. To suggest these men returning from IS support can be "de-radicalised" is an insult to any sane person's intelligence. I would call them traitors and charge and deal with them accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 But what to do about the immediate situation? This is what we do about the immediate situation Part 1 Part 2 Are you saying that IS should be left alone? Occupying land with millions of people? I don't get the logic of preventing a few hundred / thousand deaths at the expense of millions of people suffering? And lets not forget, ISIS are killing far more people than the bombs: Double take - For a second I thought you were referring to Israel..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted November 25, 2015 Author Share Posted November 25, 2015 Perhaps Israel is an apt comparison. It wasn't that long ago that European Jewish refugees, under a legal mandate from the UN, went to the middle east seeking refuge. How did the occupants of Palestine, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt etc respond? Was it with open arms? No. They tried to murder them. Innocent people who had just experienced the worst attrocity in living memory, and their reaction was to try slaughtering them. And then the defeated aggressors have the nerve to throw a tantrum about land grabbing? While I abhor Israels behaviour, the Palestinians have no moral highground. Quite the contrary, for centuries they ethnically cleansed the region of Jews and Christians, and even now Palestine is one of the least tolerant societies on earth. By contrast, tel aviv has a thriving gay / LGBT community. And they indiscriminately fire rockets into Israeli cities on a daily basis. Isn't this the same behaviour you're berating the French, Russians and US for? Actually it's worse, because at least the aforementioned nations are aiming at military targets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted November 25, 2015 Author Share Posted November 25, 2015 And why isn't Isis in Syria "our problem", yet Israel/Palestine is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 I wonder if there's any precedent to NATO abandoning a member state who is seen to be misbehaving? I hope there's one about to be set... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted November 25, 2015 Author Share Posted November 25, 2015 I wonder if there's any precedent to NATO abandoning a member state who is seen to be misbehaving? I hope there's one about to be set... The irony is, Turkish RF4E Phantoms regularly fly into Greek airspace, and ignore the Greek protests. The Russians are deploying a guided missile destroyer nearby now (their equivalent of an Aegis or Type 45), and will no doubt wait for a Turkish jet to cross the border and take a shot. I just hope they don't hit one of the American F15s stationed near the border... Turkey is no friends of ours, and personally I can't see how they were allowed to remain a member of NATO after their obvious military aggression against a fellow member state over Cyprus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philly_1 Lex Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 I wonder if there's any precedent to NATO abandoning a member state who is seen to be misbehaving? I hope there's one about to be set... Nope. Would break the foundation of the alliance. But if they could who would make that call? I think that is a interesting question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 And why isn't Isis in Syria "our problem", yet Israel/Palestine is? My point being - consistency would be appreciated rather than the current & usual hypocrisy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted November 25, 2015 Author Share Posted November 25, 2015 Israel / Palestine aren't abducting people from around the world and beheading them for propaganda. Israel / Palestine didn't take credit for 120 deaths in the capital of one of our closest friends and allies recently. Although imo the Palestinian situation is being used to corrupt the minds of Western Muslims (and Jews, though probably to a lesser extent). Even just from social media, you can see that issue causes a great deal of irrational hatred and confusion, and can squarely be held responsible for the rise in anti semitic attacks in Europe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Israel / Palestine aren't abducting people from around the world and beheading them for propaganda. Israel / Palestine didn't take credit for 120 deaths in the capital of one of our closest friends and allies recently. Although imo the Palestinian situation is being used to corrupt the minds of Western Muslims (and Jews, though probably to a lesser extent). Even just from social media, you can see that issue causes a great deal of irrational hatred and confusion, and can squarely be held responsible for the rise in anti semitic attacks in Europe. Whats your point? Agree to Consistency or Hypocrisy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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