Kendo11 Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 It's only like looking at Hitler and Stalin. Both hated each other, claim to be different but actually identical in the most monstrous ways imaginable. Yup. It all ended in a world war too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted November 19, 2015 Author Share Posted November 19, 2015 I doubt there could be a world war now. The US has been very smart in building alliances around the world. No country is going to risk all out war with them. Certainly in a conventional weapons sense, the next 5 strongest nations in the world combined could go to war against the US and lose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 In a way isn't it nice to see Russia and the USA working together against a common enemy? If the global super powers could put aside their political and idealogical differences and work together their common enemies could be probably be overcome with some ease, save for the enemies already within said nations. They are the ones which are the most insidious and hardest to rid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendo11 Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 I doubt there could be a world war now. The US has been very smart in building alliances around the world. No country is going to risk all out war with them. Certainly in a conventional weapons sense, the next 5 strongest nations in the world combined could go to war against the US and lose. Don't thing about it in the conventional ww2 sense. Nor nuclear. Ww3 will be by proxy and it's not far off. Everything you're seeing is a show of force as a warning/preclude, particularly on the Russian side. Half of the stuff they have in Syria at the moment is purely for posturing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted November 19, 2015 Author Share Posted November 19, 2015 You could say the same about the French. Lots of fancy equipment, but a closer look reveals forces that are lacking in experience (their pilots get 2/3 the regular flying time ours get), a large, conventional aircraft carrier that is less reliable than a Citroën, probably the best main battle Tank in the world, but because of a lack of investment in spares, 20%+ of the fleet is inoperable, no credible long range airlift capability etc etc. At least the Russians continued to invest in their Military when their economy was unwell, as a result they have some excellent equipment. The West foolishly sacrificed numbers for better equipment, and many forces are now paying the price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendo11 Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 The Russians have very capable air to air power, but in Syria that's largely irrelevant. Their newest ground armour is yet to come up against the latest American anti tank equipment as I've highlighted before. Won't be long though. Most of their ordinance is obsolete, look a little further into what they are actually dropping in Syria, a much closer look. Think you might be getting your reliability bit mixed up between Russia & France Oh and you'll upset a few on here claiming the LeClerc is any match for a Challenger 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted November 19, 2015 Author Share Posted November 19, 2015 I prefer challenger, some of its achievements are incredible, but the LeClerc is generally acknowledged as the best and most expensive. The Russians probably aren't quite on a par A2A vs the best of the western equipment (Typhoon and F22 especially, Rafale is also very capable). However, the Russians have an excellent COIN aircraft in the SU25. Cheap to operate, well armoured and capable of carrying a great weapons load. The cost per sortie of an SU25 must be a fraction of that of a Typhoon, yet it is perfectly suited to Syria / Iraq. Just like the American A10, which despite the USAF doing everything it can to drop them, will live on for a long time yet. Our strike capability is overkill for our current conflict, though the drones are certainly helping. But the weapons we hang on them are still eye-wateringly expensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendo11 Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 The LeClerc is not tested in combat in full French spec, it's also got the least spares package so less than half can be deployed at once. The Challenger is proven. Back to Syria, Russia dropping rusty weather damaged bombs (large percentage of which fail) onto hospitals and markets doesn't prove reliability of military for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Massey Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Palestine (Hamas) are supplied by Iran & Russia, and are (despite what you'd think) enemies of Isis. My comment was in reference to them being run by war criminals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Massey Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 probably the best main battle Tank in the world Are you sure? The Challenger is proven. As above, our tank is above par on everything really. It's also the reason why 2 of the richest countries in the world chose to purchase our tanks. The new Russian tank however, if and that's a big IF the reports are true, will be a very formidable tank for anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendo11 Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Not disagreeing with you Al, didn't the Russian one break down on the first parade? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted November 19, 2015 Author Share Posted November 19, 2015 Are you sure? As above, our tank is above par on everything really. The challenger 2 is my favourite, and ad I said it's feats, specifically it's service record and shooting record are tye best. But you read any overall performance comparison and they generally give it to LeClerc. But as said, that doesn't account for the ridiculous spares arrangement. However, I'm sure there are things about the Challenger, and more specifically its rather special armour that us civvies don't know about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted November 19, 2015 Author Share Posted November 19, 2015 Not disagreeing with you Al, didn't the Russian one break down on the first parade? The German King Tigers of WW2 had a habit of breaking down, but they were still without a doubt the best tank of the war. The only way the allied tanks stood a chance was to overwhelm them numerically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abz Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 As humans we have not learned a lot from our past, it is wars which has made it the unsafe heaven that it is today. Without a weapons race and people being ordered to kill on command, the world would be a much safer place. People's lives are being lost through politics, it is inciting fear and breeding hatred. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted November 19, 2015 Author Share Posted November 19, 2015 Greed, conflict, aggression, aspiration, ambition, jealousy, tribalism etc are all elements of human nature, and always will be. There will always be new things to fight over Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Our tanks are better than theirs, our military personnel are better trained, weapons are more accurate - sounds like some d...k waving contest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Found this post on Facebook (Richard o'brien) that put forward an interesting viewpoint - with some facts (although I have t personally verified them) “France drops 20 bombs on IS stronghold” Sometimes saying stuff is hard. Like when you see a depressingly predictable headline like this, and you want to say “it’s not France, it’s their government”. You want to say that each of those 20 bombs carries a destructive power roughly equivalent to the Bali bombing. You want to say that even with laser-guidance systems, each of those bombs has, at best, a 50% chance of landing within 10 meters of its target. You want to say that according to the estimates of a number of NGOs, the casualties from those bombs will be 80-90% civilian. And you want to say that the “IS stronghold” is otherwise known as the city and district of Ar-Raqqah. You want to say that the city has stood since 300 BC, and was Syria’s sixth largest city when the civil war began. You want to tell people that although it’s an IS stronghold today, last year it was a stronghold of the al-Qaeda affiliated al-Nusra front, and the year before that, the Assad regime. You want to say how unbelievably terrifying the atrocities carried out on the citizens of Ar-Raqqah by all three of those occupiers have been since 2011. You want to say that those 20 bombs are part of a $10 billion a year industry, whose biggest customers until recently included Iraq and Syria. You want to say how that industry has made France one of the top 5 weapons exporters today. And you want to say that before the war Ar-Raqqah's only significant export was cotton. You want to say that before the war Ar-Raqqah was a district of close to one million Shia, Sunnis and Christians, and that today there are less than 400,000. You want to say how some of those people fled the terror of Assad, al-Nusra and IS, and the retaliatory airstrikes they called down upon them. You want to say that they fled because they couldn’t tell the difference between having their lives, limbs or loved ones taken from them by a bomb that was laser-guided, and one that was strapped to a person. And you want to say that those people are the asylum seekers that so much hatred and blame is now being levelled at, by the same pissants who lead us down this path after 9/11. You want to say we’re making the same mistakes that created monsters like IS, and laws against our freedom that do nothing to protect us from terrorism, and everything to protect those lawmakers from us. Sometimes saying stuff is hard. It’s hard because even if you can find a way to say all those things, you’re not sure anyone’s going to listen. Because sometimes saying stuff is easy. Stuff like “all terrorists are Muslim”, or “we should close our borders”, or “France drops 20 bombs on IS stronghold”. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted November 19, 2015 Author Share Posted November 19, 2015 Our tanks are better than theirs, our military personnel are better trained, weapons are more accurate - sounds like some d...k waving contest. There's absolutely nothing wrong with having pride in the countries armed forces. Weapons themselves aren't evil. Humans create a demand, and like anything else someone build supplies for it. And weapons development and military funding have accrued for the greatest strides in innovation in human history. Many of the everyday gadgets we use, from smartphones to microwaves can attribute their creation to weapons development. From an engineering standpoint, weapons are fascinating. As for your second post, that is fine, and I agree with you to an extent. But let's not forget, the status quo in the countries in which we have intervened was dire. It's easy to look back with hindsight though. Do you have a realistic alternative? Sometimes non intervention can be worse than doing something, had the Arab League dealt with ISIS to start with we would not be in this position. Instead of leadership they have shown cowardice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendo11 Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Found this post on Facebook (Richard o'brien) that put forward an interesting viewpoint - with some facts (although I have t personally verified them) “France drops 20 bombs on IS stronghold” Sometimes saying stuff is hard. Like when you see a depressingly predictable headline like this, and you want to say “it’s not France, it’s their government”. You want to say that each of those 20 bombs carries a destructive power roughly equivalent to the Bali bombing. You want to say that even with laser-guidance systems, each of those bombs has, at best, a 50% chance of landing within 10 meters of its target. You want to say that according to the estimates of a number of NGOs, the casualties from those bombs will be 80-90% civilian. And you want to say that the “IS stronghold” is otherwise known as the city and district of Ar-Raqqah. You want to say that the city has stood since 300 BC, and was Syria’s sixth largest city when the civil war began. You want to tell people that although it’s an IS stronghold today, last year it was a stronghold of the al-Qaeda affiliated al-Nusra front, and the year before that, the Assad regime. You want to say how unbelievably terrifying the atrocities carried out on the citizens of Ar-Raqqah by all three of those occupiers have been since 2011. You want to say that those 20 bombs are part of a $10 billion a year industry, whose biggest customers until recently included Iraq and Syria. You want to say how that industry has made France one of the top 5 weapons exporters today. And you want to say that before the war Ar-Raqqah's only significant export was cotton. You want to say that before the war Ar-Raqqah was a district of close to one million Shia, Sunnis and Christians, and that today there are less than 400,000. You want to say how some of those people fled the terror of Assad, al-Nusra and IS, and the retaliatory airstrikes they called down upon them. You want to say that they fled because they couldn’t tell the difference between having their lives, limbs or loved ones taken from them by a bomb that was laser-guided, and one that was strapped to a person. And you want to say that those people are the asylum seekers that so much hatred and blame is now being levelled at, by the same pissants who lead us down this path after 9/11. You want to say we’re making the same mistakes that created monsters like IS, and laws against our freedom that do nothing to protect us from terrorism, and everything to protect those lawmakers from us. Sometimes saying stuff is hard. It’s hard because even if you can find a way to say all those things, you’re not sure anyone’s going to listen. Because sometimes saying stuff is easy. Stuff like “all terrorists are Muslim”, or “we should close our borders”, or “France drops 20 bombs on IS stronghold”. Perfectly put. So few people care though. I scream it from my politicised twitter account. I surprise mates with it on Facebook every now and then. A few of us say it on here. But not enough people give a shit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Bullitt Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 Sorry but that Richard O'Brien sounds like the rest of the apathetic lemmings spouting nothing but trite without offering up any real world solutions. Governments have been standing back and watching without acting for far too long, as soon as they do something people jump on the band wagon and start banging the persecution drum. What would he have us do? Turn the other cheek? Bury our heads in the sand and pretend it's not really happening? Maybe we should all hug our bunnies, join hands and sing kumbayah until a miraculous solution appears! Who cares that the city and district of Ar-Raqqah has stood since 300 BC? ISIS certainly don't care, they blow up the Arch of Triumph in the 2,000 year old city of Palmyra! What about the desecrated graves of British WWII heroes smashed by Libyan Islamists? Should we just make an excuse for that as well? That guy is nothing more than a sycophantic dilettante and a part of the problem not part of the solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 Sorry but that Richard O'Brien sounds like the rest of the apathetic lemmings spouting nothing but trite without offering up any real world solutions. Governments have been standing back and watching without acting for far too long, as soon as they do something people jump on the band wagon and start banging the persecution drum. What would he have us do? Turn the other cheek? Bury our heads in the sand and pretend it's not really happening? Maybe we should all hug our bunnies, join hands and sing kumbayah until a miraculous solution appears! Who cares that the city and district of Ar-Raqqah has stood since 300 BC? ISIS certainly don't care, they blow up the Arch of Triumph in the 2,000 year old city of Palmyra! What about the desecrated graves of British WWII heroes smashed by Libyan Islamists? Should we just make an excuse for that as well? That guy is nothing more than a sycophantic dilettante and a part of the problem not part of the solution. what we should do is not what will interest the trigger happy, blood thirsty people amongst us. what I am certain will happen is a continuation of a super successful business model that I alluded to earlier Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Bullitt Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 what we should do is not what will interest the trigger happy, blood thirsty people amongst us. So what do we do? what I am also certain will happen is a continuation of a super successful business model that I alluded to earlier Of course it will. We all know war is profitable for a select few, it always was and always will be. Unfortunately nothing will ever change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abz Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 If nothing changes should we just keep doing the same thing over and over again, isn't that what we call insanity?! I am afraid their is no quick answer, especially the current circumstances BUT the terrorists are winning at the moment. They want us to be divided & be scared & to retaliate and we are doing exactly that. All it took was 8 crack smoking terrorists & look how much air time they have got. Plastered everywhere & we remain to do so for a while. They are even being praised for their sophisticated attacks & intense planning. Are we really saying a bunch of low life, druggies are better equipped than our highly trained force(s). That they have access to a better collection of weapons & technology than us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendo11 Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 Sorry but that Richard O'Brien sounds like the rest of the apathetic lemmings spouting nothing but trite without offering up any real world solutions. Governments have been standing back and watching without acting for far too long, as soon as they do something people jump on the band wagon and start banging the persecution drum. What would he have us do? Turn the other cheek? Bury our heads in the sand and pretend it's not really happening? Maybe we should all hug our bunnies, join hands and sing kumbayah until a miraculous solution appears! Who cares that the city and district of Ar-Raqqah has stood since 300 BC? ISIS certainly don't care, they blow up the Arch of Triumph in the 2,000 year old city of Palmyra! What about the desecrated graves of British WWII heroes smashed by Libyan Islamists? Should we just make an excuse for that as well? That guy is nothing more than a sycophantic dilettante and a part of the problem not part of the solution. I'd disagree Frank. Yes he doesn't offer any solutions but the amount of flamingos or Putin fan boys who bury their heads in the sand and somehow think that bombing ambulances and hospitals and civilians in Raqqa will solve the problem is unbelievable. He's helping make people aware of the actual situation if nothing else. Videos were shared yesterday by RaqqaSL on twitter ('Raqqa is being slaughtered silently') of fathers cradling their families killed by French & Russian bombs. I know there are tons of videos like that around, some people share for awareness & some don't want to acknowledge it's happening but SURELY all that will do is create more anti-western feeling that in turn breeds extremism!? Look at what the US is doing in voting to not accept any more Syrian refugees, that's all well and good and certain people will applaud them for protecting their borders etc bit if their bombing campaign is actually going to create more refugees then how is that going to do anything else but make people over there hate them? We should be able to have faith in our leaders to act not only in our best interests but with responsibility for those their actions are directly affecting, because it ends up affecting all of us in some way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Bullitt Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 I'd disagree Frank. Yes he doesn't offer any solutions but the amount of flamingos or Putin fan boys who bury their heads in the sand and somehow think that bombing ambulances and hospitals and civilians in Raqqa will solve the problem is unbelievable. He's helping make people aware of the actual situation if nothing else. Videos were shared yesterday by RaqqaSL on twitter ('Raqqa is being slaughtered silently') of fathers cradling their families killed by French & Russian bombs. I know there are tons of videos like that around, some people share for awareness & some don't want to acknowledge it's happening but SURELY all that will do is create more anti-western feeling that in turn breeds extremism!? Look at what the US is doing in voting to not accept any more Syrian refugees, that's all well and good and certain people will applaud them for protecting their borders etc bit if their bombing campaign is actually going to create more refugees then how is that going to do anything else but make people over there hate them? We should be able to have faith in our leaders to act not only in our best interests but with responsibility for those their actions are directly affecting, because it ends up affecting all of us in some way. No surprise there Those videos you mention couldn't possibly be being used as propaganda, just like the shocking images of drowned Syrian boy were? I couldn't agree more with what the US is doing, you need to look after number one in this situation and if that involves closing your boarders down to protect yourself then so be it. Since when did refugees fleeing a Civil war become our problem? If that is not acting in our best interests what is? If five of the wealthiest Muslim countries have taken no Syrian refugees in at all why should we? They are arguing that doing so would open them up to the risk of terrorism and what will it do to us? It is difficult if not impossible to perform background checks on the migrants, are you trying to tell me there are no ISIS fighters amongst them? No Rapists? No Murders? No Paedophile's? You only need to look what has been happening in the UK since the boarders were opened to all and sundry in Europe. ISIS hide amongst us and they kill indiscriminately, anyone; Christian, Muslim, Atheist, Young, Old, the healthy and the infirm. They set people on fire; they behead others and post the imagery on the Internet. They rape en masse including children and they commit mass murder that rivals Hitler’s Einsatzgruppen. They have started a war and the war is ugly. It is grotesque and it is barbaric. The longer it continues the longer innocent people will continue to suffer and die. There is no nice way to do this but there never has been and if the Western world cannot stomach the fight and its’ consequences we have already lost. The failure for decades has been the failure to accept that you can't fight wars humanely. Letting these things drag on only increases the horror and no amount of hand wringing will ever stop it. Do you want the fight to be in our towns and cities where more innocent people can be indiscriminately slaughtered or on the battlefield? Which is it to be? Oh but of course – it’s the West’s entire fault! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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