A country without borders is not a country.

[Kendo11]

...

[Kendo11]

...

[j_jza80]

Well, I won't reply to your post as thoroughly as before, as otherwise I'll be up all night. Save to say, we obviously agree that something needs to be done, we just disagree on how that should be achieved.

 

 

But again, that does not justify turning a blind eye to my fellow man fleeing war.

 

Which I am not suggesting, at all. We should be helping the refugees, but I do not think it is in our best interests to bring them here. I'm not singling out Syrian refugees BTW. We have plenty of resources at our disposal to help these people, one thing that we are desperately short of is space. Let the other countries in Europe take them in. I would be more than happy for us to provide additional funding if needed. Education, training, food, whatever they need. But bringing them here is not in our best interests, or theirs.

 

As for the economic and social migrants who are lining up in Calais from Bangladesh, Pakistan, Sub Saharan Africa etc, who are trying to make a mockery of our immigratio system, they should have the full force of the law thrown at them, and then deported.

[Chris Wilson]

Agree in terms of where the world is heading.

 

Good grief, did I read that right?? You agree with *ME*?? (I have had a drink or two, I'll proof read that again in the morning )

[imi]

Well, I won't reply to your post as thoroughly as before, as otherwise I'll be up all night. Save to say, we obviously agree that something needs to be done, we just disagree on how that should be achieved.

 

 

 

Which I am not suggesting, at all. We should be helping the refugees, but I do not think it is in our best interests to bring them here.

 

No point responding back in any detail as he is ignoring the point that has been made repeatedly.

 

They seize to be refugees if they refuse to port in the 1st safe country.

 

Ones who are desperately trying to come to Western Europe are not refugees they are chancers and at worse potential criminals

[j_jza80]

 

Ones who are desperately trying to come to Western Europe are not refugees they are chancers and at worse potential criminals

 

This is a concern. Now, I'm sure that 99% of those who tear up their papers and mutilate their fingertips do so purely to avoid getting sent home. But you wonder how many murderers, war criminals, terrorists, pedophiles and crooks come to start a new life/spree. We should be saying to them that anyone found there who has purposefully destroyed their own fingerprints will be refused outright.

[Scooter]

No point responding back in any detail as he is ignoring the point that has been made repeatedly.

 

They seize to be refugees if they refuse to port in the 1st safe country.

 

Ones who are desperately trying to come to Western Europe are not refugees they are chancers and at worse potential criminals

 

Were your parents or your parents parents etc chancers for wanting to come here? Or were they refugees from France seeking safety in the nearest country after being in fear for their lives? Indian, Pakistani and polish people seem to be quite well represented in this country and I'm not 100% sure any of these have suffered the plight of the Syrian people. You have to have some neck to have migrated here somehow and then critise others for wanting to do so.

[imi]

Were your parents or your parents parents etc chancers for wanting to come here? Or were they refugees from France seeking safety in the nearest country after being in fear for their lives? Indian, Pakistani and polish people seem to be quite well represented in this country and I'm not 100% sure any of these have suffered the plight of the Syrian people. You have to have some neck to have migrated here somehow and then critise others for wanting to do so.

 

Missed the point or chose to ignore it yet again.....

 

Oh well.

[j_jza80]

Were your parents or your parents parents etc chancers for wanting to come here? Or were they refugees from France seeking safety in the nearest country after being in fear for their lives? Indian, Pakistani and polish people seem to be quite well represented in this country and I'm not 100% sure any of these have suffered the plight of the Syrian people. You have to have some neck to have migrated here somehow and then critise others for wanting to do so.

 

Or perhaps they used the legitimate channels? Channels which are becoming harder to use, partly because so many try to abuse it. (And partly because of ridiculous EU free movement)

 

Unfortunately, many of these refugees are actively contributing to the "plight" of their people. droves of young, fighting fit men are fleeing across Europe, when the moderate opposition forces in Syria are in desperate need of their help. Did the Polish and Finns flee when they were attacked by Russia? No. Did the French, Dutch, Norweigans, Polish etc flee from the Nazis? No. They fought for their country, just as we did.

 

Now, the women and the children are one thing, but watching these perfectly able men flee is nothing short of cowardice (and it is VERY obvious that the majority are fit, young men). And then they have the nerve to march around Hungary, holding up the flags of the countries they have just abandoned? Why would we want people like that here?

[Scooter]

Missed the point or chose to ignore it yet again.....

 

Oh well.

 

What point have I missed? I don't mind being shown the error of my ways if it can be explained to me clearly. When thousands of people from those countries have come here over many years for a better life why shouldn't a Syrian try?

[imi]

Read the previous posts . It's all there

[Scooter]

Or perhaps they used the legitimate channels? Channels which are becoming harder to use, partly because so many try to abuse it. (And partly because of ridiculous EU free movement)

 

Unfortunately, many of these refugees are actively contributing to the "plight" of their people. droves of young, fighting fit men are fleeing across Europe, when the moderate opposition forces in Syria are in desperate need of their help. Did the Polish and Finns flee when they were attacked by Russia? No. Did the French, Dutch, Norweigans, Polish etc flee from the Nazis? No. They fought for their country, just as we did.

 

Now, the women and the children are one thing, but watching these perfectly able men flee is nothing short of cowardice (and it is VERY obvious that the majority are fit, young men). And then they have the nerve to march around Hungary, holding up the flags of the countries they have just abandoned? Why would we want people like that here?

 

"Cowardice" really!? What are these people meant to do grab a few rocks and fend off armed soldiers, do you know what is going on over there, I know I don't, is there even a clear 'good' side they should be fighting for, can they even join up, is there any structured force trying to take control, again I don't know? The reporting of actually what is happening in Syria is minimal isn't it?

 

You see cowardice I see desperation.

 

it seems more cowardly to spout about extra council tax hikes or an extra days wait for a hospital appointment while bodies of 'cowardly' 'chancing' 'economic migrant' get washed up on beaches.

[Scooter]

Read the previous posts . It's all there

 

Read them all and still think your view is hypocritic

 

oh well

[j_jza80]

"Cowardice" really!? What are these people meant to do grab a few rocks and fend off armed soldiers, .

 

They aren't cave men! Until a few years ago, they were a reasonably Westernised, moderate secular society. And I'm sure there is no shortage of weapons, the area has been flooded with them ever since the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.

 

do you know what is going on over there, I know I don't, is there even a clear 'good' side they should be fighting for, can they even join up, is there any structured force trying to take control, again I don't know? The reporting of actually what is happening in Syria is minimal isn't it?

 

You are right in that any decent information is difficult to get, but what is clear is that there's no shortage of various factions vying for control. Unfortunately, The moderate forces do not have the array of weapons that the government has, and they don't have the limitless number of foreign fighters that Isis and their affiliates do. What happened in Palmyra this last week was broadly equivalent to someone destroying stone henge. How would you feel if someone did that? Would you want to run away while your country is wiped off the face of the earth?

 

You see cowardice I see desperation.

 

it seems more cowardly to spout about extra council tax hikes or an extra days wait for a hospital appointment while bodies of 'cowardly' 'chancing' 'economic migrant' get washed up on beaches.

 

As I clearly demonstrated before, we already give much more than most other nations, especially when the EU aid budget (which also comes from us) is taken into account. What help would we be to anyone if we bankrupted ourselves giving money away? (and at the moment, we are borrowing that money that we give away, so it is extremely generous when you take the horrific interest payments into account)

[Abz]

They aren't cave men! Until a few years ago, they were a reasonably Westernised, moderate secular society. And I'm sure there is no shortage of weapons, the area has been flooded with them ever since the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan

 

Plus we bought them weapons too!! Actually, was that ISIS. Can not keep track of all these dodgy deals.

 

 

 

This is all over the news, it is heart breaking. No, it's actually soul destroying. As a father with a daughter nearly 3 years old it is unbearable to see this image and not once think of my own. For those that have children will understand, I will go at great lengths to protect my child regardless of risks to myself. My aim is purely to ensure my family are safe, these people are well aware of the risks. It's not like 1 or 2 people have died, it is in the hundreds & I am sure getting close to the thousands. Regardless of any situation no child should ever feel scared of death, lets remember that for a second as human beings.

 

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/if-these-extraordinarily-powerful-images-of-a-dead-syrian-child-washed-up-on-a-beach-dont-change-europes-attitude-to-refugees-what-will-10482757.html

[Kendo11]

...

[Kendo11]

...

[Kendo11]

Plus we bought them weapons too!! Actually, was that ISIS. Can not keep track of all these dodgy deals.

 

 

 

This is all over the news, it is heart breaking. No, it's actually soul destroying. As a father with a daughter nearly 3 years old it is unbearable to see this image and not once think of my own. For those that have children will understand, I will go at great lengths to protect my child regardless of risks to myself. My aim is purely to ensure my family are safe, these people are well aware of the risks. It's not like 1 or 2 people have died, it is in the hundreds & I am sure getting close to the thousands. Regardless of any situation no child should ever feel scared of death, lets remember that for a second as human beings.

 

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/if-these-extraordinarily-powerful-images-of-a-dead-syrian-child-washed-up-on-a-beach-dont-change-europes-attitude-to-refugees-what-will-10482757.html

 

Pictures like those should act as "the final straw" in all of this and make all of us want to do something, or at least give a crap.

 

Unfortunately even toddlers are being dehumanised by the media.

[Chris Wilson]

Maybe a lot of people are like myself, and do not believe for one moment all of them are fleeing terror. A lot of us believe their choice of destination is not the first place they can put their weary heads down away from shell fire, but a carefully construed, well funded bid to get to the most prosperous European countries, then go on the scrounge. The lack of wives, sisters and mothers, and children in general suggests their ploy is pretty selfish if they are indeed fleeing terror. Time will tell if people like myself are right in not believing they are mainly true refugees from where they claim to be coming from.

[hogmaw]

The lack of wives, sisters and mothers, and children in general suggests their ploy is pretty selfish if they are indeed fleeing terror.

 

Like the little boy with the red shirt.

 

Yes Chris you really know what your're talking about.

[imi]

'He'.

 

Direct your points about me to me pal or don't bother making them

 

What I'm doing is avoiding being a media sheep in terms of why they are trying to get to certain places.

 

I've also answered it several times.

 

Keep up.

 

Not sure about you avoiding being a media sheep - certainly are doing a good job avoiding the facts and common sense.

 

And no; you have yet again ignored the obvious point like scooter before you.

[Shane]

Maybe a lot of people are like myself, and do not believe for one moment all of them are fleeing terror. A lot of us believe their choice of destination is not the first place they can put their weary heads down away from shell fire, but a carefully construed, well funded bid to get to the most prosperous European countries, then go on the scrounge. The lack of wives, sisters and mothers, and children in general suggests their ploy is pretty selfish if they are indeed fleeing terror. Time will tell if people like myself are right in not believing they are mainly true refugees from where they claim to be coming from.

 

 

The same thing occurred when the Kosovo refugee crisis peaked in Spring 99. I was there at the time trying to manage 20,000 true refugees a day leaving Kosovo into Kukes in Northern Albania. Many of the young men were kept back, imprisoned, murdered or stayed to fight alongside UCK (KLA) but there was plenty of men, woman and children coming over on bikes, by foot, on tractors, carts etc, but most of these people sought sanctuary in the nearest safe haven, they didn't then travel on to the West.

 

The ones who did were the younger generation who escaped what was going on there at the time and had run from recruitment by the KLA to come here and open car washes or take over the drug/pimping trade in Luton and places like that.

[cered]

One thing bothering right me is the UK's "anti migrant" stance in terms of migrants being branded as all violent criminals who will take our jobs.

 

People don't spend their life savings and then risk their lives getting to the EU because they want our dole money. The EU needs to help with their infrastructure on their home turf rather than try to stop immigrants with force. Help them help themselves rahte rthan lose billions erecting fences politically and physically.

[j_jza80]

Like the little boy with the red shirt.

 

Yes Chris you really know what your're talking about.

 

I don't think anyone is denying that there are women and children among the migrants/refugees. But what Chris is quite rightly saying is that from the images in the media, amateur YouTube videos etc, the vast majority of these people are men, aged between 18 and 50. Overall very few have children with them.

[cered]

I don't think anyone is denying that there are women and children among the migrants/refugees. But what Chris is quite rightly saying is that from the images in the media, amateur YouTube videos etc, the vast majority of these people are men, aged between 18 and 50. Overall very few have children with them.

 

Bare in mind their culture puts the man as the "breadwinner" so it's likely he's going to the EU in order to work and send money back home. I know a few Polish people, all good guys, speak English a lot better than most native UKerz'. All they do is get a job, usually on the lower pay end of the scale or start a small business, save up some money over the course of a few years, then move back to Poland to buy land and build a house. Normally it's the man of the house who does this, it's why you'd find perhaps more 18-30 year old polish men working than polish women.