Geezabloke Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 I need one for a UK TT, what is the best? and where do i get it? I think ive decided on the Blitz NUR Spec Exhaust if this helps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisR Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 Take a look at this before you rush into anything -: http://www.mkivsupra.net/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2444&highlight=induction Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suprash Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 I have heard people say about the higher air temp due to the filter sucking air in from the engine bay, but I personally dont htink it matters a great deal when your driving, I just dont let it run longer than a few minutes when standing still to stop to much hot air being drawn in. And considering when every big power Supra's all change their air filter to after market than I wouldnt have thought that there is too much to worry about, even poeple like Terry, Leon and Paul W have all got after market jobbies and these guys know how to look after an engine. If your that concerned you can get air boxes fitted and try to improve air flow from outside by rigging up some tubing. Anyway as for which filter, erad the following: http://www.ftooc.org/contents/pages/project/filter.htm http://www.mkiv.com/techarticles/filters_test/1/index.html http://www.mkiv.com/techarticles/filters_test/2/index.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 Most of the oldies will know that this topic has been done to death. Chris Wilson and myself have respectfully agreed to dissagree but even so the bottom line is that no, an induction kit, of any make, will not make a huge difference to the car at below 450 bhp, BUT that doesn't mean it won't be noticeable. Some people will say that they in fact lose power but that is based on rolling roads that have tested said item at an air movement of no more than 60 mph. In a dyno cell with high ambient temps trying to cope with 350 horses on quite a trot.... Personally, I like them. Customers have commented on how 'responsive' the car feels after being fitted with one. Others are purely happy with the sound, irrespective of any loss/gain in power. I've decided that until a rolling road can generate airspeeds in excess of 80 mph I can't argue against them. Anything up to that point will be insignificant. In fact, the induction scenario is so full of abnormalites that we have decided to offer a combination of the two ideas: an HKS filter kit that can be used in conjunction with a carbon fibre airbox based on the original cold air pickup points. If you want my personal opinion the 'cold' air box won't make any noticeable difference but if you listen to the majority of 'anti-induction-kit' tuners it should do.... To me it's a nice looking airbox. For my money, I'd buy an HKS induction kit and leave the airbox. Knowledge is power Nathan TDI PLC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suprash Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 Nathan, but arent HKS poor for air filtering measures, or is this another one of those, depends who tested it, when, where, why type thing. As from the links I put up their results were poor for HKS, half the reason why I ripped mine off and bought a Blitz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminator Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 I had induction kit for a while, and for general road use I thought it was OK, the noise was good fun and I still miss it. But when on the track I found I was lacking power out of slow corners. The old head light out job cured the problem. Then I start to notice similar problems in the "heat" of an English summer, especially after being in traffic, as I fitted mine in winter and thought I had forgotten what the stock setup was like in warmer weather. So I did a very subjective experiment and ran the same journey to work, using stock air box with a TRD panel filter one day and an induction kit another. I found the stock set up felt like gave me a better response on the twist bits and after slow moving traffic in air temps in the high twenties. Nothing scientific, but enough to convince me to get rid of the induction kit. AFAIK Terry and Leon have additional air flow to their filters, which helps to minimise under bonnet heat build up in the filter area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich J Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 A little non-scientific research done by a fellow Integra owner using an Underbonnet filter: "The intake air temperature used to read 34 degrees under normal use. Rising to 38 degrees when stationary. " then a CAI (Cold Air induction) kit: "...stationary is still about 38 degrees. But within 300 yrds of moving, it falls to about 24 degrees. Normal running temperature is now approx 20 degrees. " Definate drop in air temp in the air that is reaching the standard temp sensor on the Integra (in the intake manifold I believe), outside temp was about 16deg C. From me, same thread using same equipment to measure temp different intake system, mine system is similar to the standard airbox (filter inside) with a larger "snorkle" where the other guys is one of those long alli tubes with a filter on the end outside the engine bay: "Stationary quickly rises to 38deg and then slowly upto 45deg if left for 10-15 minutes" "Motorway cruising 22deg" "Accelerating 30-70MPH about 19-20deg" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 Can't offer any technical data like these guys but......... When I fitted my induction kit I started hitting fuel cut, obviously this means it increased the boost, by how much I'm not sure, as I didn't have a boost gauge at the time. I have a Blitz SUS, more expensive than the others, but looks good and sounds good, plus it up'd my boost a tad. You have a UK spec so may get different results than I did. Above all things it sounds great Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raoul H Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 For what its worth, when I put the stock airbox back on, the car felt like it had more torque at the low-mid range (I was running an HKS filter before) but seemed to be slightly throttled at the top end. I have since swapped it out for an APEXi unit and like the HKS, It doesn't feel as torquey (spelling) low end, but mid-high, it seems to give better response than the stock box. My non-scientific opinion is that the stock airbox sacrifices high-end BHP for low-mid range torque whilst the filters do the opposite. Strangely enough, my fastest qtr was achieved when I had the stock box, but there were lots of other factors that caused this. Apart from performance, as someone else mentioned, there is also the issue of good filtration. One of the members had surprising results when on a Skyline running HKS filters. At the end of the day the best bet is to have a search, as it really has been comprehensively debated apart from that you'll just have to suck it and see. Rgds, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B3any Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 Whether they do offer more or infact less, i bought mine coz they look good and sound even better:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 Originally posted by Ashley Willis Nathan, but arent HKS poor for air filtering measures, or is this another one of those, depends who tested it, when, where, why type thing. As from the links I put up their results were poor for HKS, half the reason why I ripped mine off and bought a Blitz. IMO all the aftermarket filters I have seen will offer LESS filtration than the OE airbox and filter. As to how much less, and what it's consequences are is very difficult to quantify. CW found erosion on his compressor impellers and claimed that it was the poor filtration of the HKS elements that was the problem. My Supra had run HKS filters since it was first upgraded and I never noticed any wear on the turbos. Most will agree that for the best filtration you need to keep the stock unit and replace the panel regularly. What can't be answered is just how much an aftermarket filter will reduce the life of the engine. 5K miles? 10K miles? No one knows, but it's unlikely you will keep the car long enough to worry about it. You say you bought a Blitz unit? The pleated stainless mesh type? HKS (who also make them) claim that they need FAR more attention to keep the filtration good than their usual Powerflows. And if I see another link to that filter test with the hoover and a bag of dust I really will 'LOL'. I'm all for proving facts but come on... Rich: Good data. It's clear that the induction kit without a cold air feed picks up hotter air. It's a shame that we can't see the result of it. When looking for such small differences in power output the only way is on the rollers bur then we're back to the poor airspeed/high ambients of the dyno cell....catch 22... Cheers, Nathan TDI PLC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 Nathan, whats the "exchange rate" for the HKS Powerflow filters, I mean, how long do they last. I bought one from you, what seems like a long, long time ago now. I reckon it's due for replacement Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Cargill Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 Originally posted by Nathan HKS (who also make them) claim that they need FAR more attention to keep the filtration good than their usual Powerflows. Don't HKS recomend that the Powerflow (green oiled sponge mushroom) is replaced every 5000KM's acording to the bag the new filter came in? It is also possible to wash and re-oil them (you can get K&N oil), weather that's sensible I don't know. The new HKS steel filter I think they advise cleaning every 1000Kms and also to avoid dusty environments. I've no hard facts here, just ideas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam W Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 Can one of you chaps think of a good way of testing the filtration efficiency of these things? I've got access to a load of stuff at work like calibrated vacuum pumps, laser particle sizers etc. I can't think of anything better to se as a test medium than "a bag of dust" though so it's the same basic test, just a bit more rigorous. You can get calibrated glass dust in a variety of sizes down to 2 or 3 microns diameter, it's stupidly expensive though so I won't be using that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 Adam, your workplace frightens me. Do you make things that kill people? A bit like Experiment IV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam W Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 I test the things we make to ensure that they don't kill people. I'm dangerously undertrained and largely incompetent - you'll all see me in the papers soon enough I get to play with all sorts of cool shit - I found that these two compounds suspended in water made a huge amount of this pitch black carbon "foam" when mixed together. God forbid that anyone would ever put one compound in a toilet bowl, and the other compound in the cistern . . . I can't imagine the mess it would make if some innocent person came along and flushed it . . . :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 Originally posted by Adam Wootten I'm dangerously undertrained and largely incompetent - you'll all see me in the papers soon enough LOL. You remind me of my brother in his earlier years Adam. Scarily enough his names Adam too..... He was always 'experimenting' and 'fiddling' with things. One of the more memorable ones was building a low-voltage variable electric test 'cell' into which was placed live insects to test their reactions. He was 9 at the time. A more worthwhile project was a pressure sensor at the foot of the stairs wired to a light in his room so he could tell when Mum and Dad were coming up the stairs and pretend he was asleep. This system was later updated with his homemade intercom and for years our parents never sussed it.... Anyway, I digress. Steve: I think your comments are about right on all counts except on the cleaning of HKS elements. It CAN be done but I've never really gone that route purely because a brand new one only costs around £20 anyway. As for mileage, it's very difficult to say but I'd change them whenever they look 'dirty' or dark. Adam: a test would be good, but I've no idea of the average particle size of 'ambient dust' as found on the roads. Maybe you could find out? Then we'd need to find out the CFM of say a 400bhp soop (not difficult) and then try and work out just how much damage any ingested particle would make. I'm sure I have read somewhere that a large amount of 'dirt' passes straight through an engine anyway but I could be wrong. I bet you loved those lessons that involved potassium permanganate and water.... Nathan TDI PLC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GavinL Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 Originally posted by Adam Wootten Can one of you chaps think of a good way of testing the filtration efficiency of these things? I've got access to a load of stuff at work like calibrated vacuum pumps, laser particle sizers etc. I can't think of anything better to se as a test medium than "a bag of dust" though so it's the same basic test, just a bit more rigorous. You can get calibrated glass dust in a variety of sizes down to 2 or 3 microns diameter, it's stupidly expensive though so I won't be using that. Do you have access to some sort of enclosure you could circulate a set amount of dust/dirt in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Cargill Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 Nathan: I went the cleaning route once a few years ago, cost about £10 for the oil, about 1/2 hours work and all sorts of hell for getting oil in the kitchen!!!! I've since bought new elements...... I did the maths a few years ago and it's a lot of air!!! 3L CC = 1.5L volume/stroke. 6K RPM = 150L per second. 1 BAR = double volume 300L of air per second at 6K RPM at 1 BAR boost. I'd guess that the 'interesting' stuff is V small particals of road/sand. How about washing a V dirty car and filtering/drying what comes off (use mine if you like ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam W Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 Originally posted by GavinL Do you have access to some sort of enclosure you could circulate a set amount of dust/dirt in? I could put a set weight of dirt in a taped up cardboard box or something, it would be difficult to keep all the dirt in suspension though. Steve - my pump will go up to about 150l/min I think, I reckon that would be enough to do a reasonable comparison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich J Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 Originally posted by Nathan Rich: Good data. It's clear that the induction kit without a cold air feed picks up hotter air. It's a shame that we can't see the result of it. When looking for such small differences in power output the only way is on the rollers bur then we're back to the poor airspeed/high ambients of the dyno cell....catch 22...[/b] Yeah I agree, all you can say in the end is that is cooler, and (I think everyone agrees) cooler is better. Whether it's making any real difference, who knows? But it can't hurt especially if you are tring to exceed the specifications of what the engine is designed to come out of the factory with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 Originally posted by Adam Wootten I test the things we make to ensure that they don't kill people. I'm dangerously undertrained and largely incompetent - you'll all see me in the papers soon enough I get to play with all sorts of cool shit - I found that these two compounds suspended in water made a huge amount of this pitch black carbon "foam" when mixed together. God forbid that anyone would ever put one compound in a toilet bowl, and the other compound in the cistern . . . I can't imagine the mess it would make if some innocent person came along and flushed it . . . :D Hmm, that sounds good, what do I mix? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 Originally posted by HardHead42 Whether it's making any real difference, who knows? But it can't hurt especially if you are tring to exceed the specifications of what the engine is designed to come out of the factory with. Hi Rich, For sure, colder air certainly won't hurt but as I've said time and time again, theory means Jack Squit without final data. For example it's possible that an aftermarket induction kit may well lose say 5bhp at 3K rpm on the daily commute but may gain 15bhp at 6K rpm on the move due to the restriction of the stock airbox, cold air or not. Put another way, you could have air at -3 deg C if you wanted to, but what you lose to achieve it could cost you more power than it's worth. It's the end result I'm only interested in. Any data leading to it, although interesting, is largely useless when it comes to a final decision. Stick a free-flow air filter stright out of the top of the bonnet, thats what I say Cheers, Nathan TDI PLC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibrar Jabbar Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 How about this Nathan:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam W Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 Stretch an old sock over it and that would work great! That's the PHR car isn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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