mellonman Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I thouht it was down to the ecu having ROM's and not EEPROM's They are mapable but you have to change the ROM's out for EEPROM's which in its self is abit of fafing about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanisLupus Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 The standard ecu can't be remapped, hence why piggy backs and stand alone ecu's like Syvecs are so popular. Not because of Americans. You can get modified ecu's, but that's not remapping. It's not plug and play, and has nothing to do with lazy americans. It's down to cost, and what is achievable. Where is the difference? If i take the ROM of and solder a new modded(or the old overwritten) one on it it's still a remap. That's the way it was done in the early days of remapping cars because there was no access to the ECU over OBD Ports or anything else. I've had it done that way on my cars... And it's not a cost thing in that way but more of a knowledge thing(though knowledge equals cost so you are right in a way ). You have to find the right tables and maps for a remap and that is still the case on modern Remaps but no one is looking into Standalones when doing it on modern cars. So what happened back then? Instead of taking the OEM ECU which was more than capable of running a single turbo(I'll find the pictures of the "modded" OEM ECU) and mapping it for the Setup they took a Piggy back and messed with timing and Fuelling which never was 100% as the stock ECU reacts in different ways in different conditions. And what could be more PnP than the OEM ECU with no need to interfere with signals or, without a patch harness, butcher the Stock wiring?? There were other things too that got lost due to the "simple and easy way" like Hybrid Turbos for the 2jz(those were already available 1994 or 1995), Transition Controllers etc over the years... slap on a big Turbo give it heaps of boost and control it with a crap Piggy back. Example given: http://mkiv.supras.org.nz/articles/motor2.htm have fun reading Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
costas1 Posted February 12, 2015 Author Share Posted February 12, 2015 these here are way too much info..thx guys did not know all these stuff..just had in mind that the supra ecu can not be mapped..but at the end what is the best and cheapest way? put in an aftermarket or map the standard?(i guess very few know how to do that right?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
costas1 Posted February 12, 2015 Author Share Posted February 12, 2015 @tricky.. jdm bpu different city also a dynojet though boost problems so only 0.9 bar.. 368 at the wheels Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-Ricky Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Don't worry about the those on their soap boxes Costas, everybody has an opinion, some valid and some just like to argue the point. I cant see anything on the graph that states wheel HP, dynos measure the power at the wheels, but most calculate this down to flywheel HP, the end result is also down to how the dyno is calibrated, and gears used, so they are not always reliable for being completely accurate, like I said don't get too hung up on what the dyno chart says. I think your best bet if your not too confident working on you Supra is to first find a decent tuner, IE one thats recommended by others for his work rather than dyno results, then get him to check out you car setup and tell you whats what. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mellonman Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Or buy a wide band AFR gauge and fit it in the correct place Then you will know if you are running lean or not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luxluc Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 When my Supra was BPU'd in 2007, I ran my euro-spec turbo @ 1.5 bar (22 psi). I did go that high knowing that I would go single the year after. Even with 1.5 bar, my BPU setup was not nearly as fast as my first single kit (PHR stage 1), which must have pushed around 520bhp at 1.5 bar. So 500bhp on BPU is not possible without modded turbos and race fuel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Where is the difference? If i take the ROM of and solder a new modded(or the old overwritten) one on it it's still a remap. That's the way it was done in the early days of remapping cars because there was no access to the ECU over OBD Ports or anything else. I've had it done that way on my cars... And it's not a cost thing in that way but more of a knowledge thing(though knowledge equals cost so you are right in a way ). You have to find the right tables and maps for a remap and that is still the case on modern Remaps but no one is looking into Standalones when doing it on modern cars. A "remap" is considered changing the existing values of the stock ECU. That's more a replacement map, like the MINES ECU etc. Swapping an entire ECU out isn't a remap. That's a "different ECU". So that's the difference So what happened back then? Instead of taking the OEM ECU which was more than capable of running a single turbo(I'll find the pictures of the "modded" OEM ECU) Please do, never heard of it. A stock ECU isn't capable of running a single turbo. Funnily enough that's about the one "lazy American" thing we've mostly all resisted, sticking on a single turbo and pretending the stock ECU will still work... But you're endorsing it in your rant against "lazy American" things and mapping it for the Setup they took a Piggy back and messed with timing and Fuelling which never was 100% as the stock ECU reacts in different ways in different conditions. And what could be more PnP than the OEM ECU with no need to interfere with signals or, without a patch harness, butcher the Stock wiring?? What could be less PnP than cracking open the stock ECU and soldering in tiny components, hoping you don't wreck the whole thing? There were other things too that got lost due to the "simple and easy way" like Hybrid Turbos for the 2jz(those were already available 1994 or 1995), Transition Controllers etc over the years... slap on a big Turbo give it heaps of boost and control it with a crap Piggy back. Example given: http://mkiv.supras.org.nz/articles/motor2.htm have fun reading I've just skim read that article and it's comical in how much it gets wrong. If you're holding that up as 'proof' of 'how it used to be done' and how the stock ECU can be used to do everything, I'd suggest re-reading it with the rose-tinted glasses off and some reading glasses on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 (edited) I read the article some more, it's proper funny. 500bhp on hybrids, oh really? But can't crack 110mph on the quarter mile. So, just about BPU then. It doesn't have two different sized turbos, doesn't have hybrids, doesn't have a sequential transition controller, doesn't have a reprogrammed ecu, doesn't have 500bhp, doesn't have really anything the article claims, and is basically a shining example of the crap builds and magazine articles thrown together all those years ago. Thanks for the perfect article to shoot down your own claims I'd rather have a "crap" piggyback with real performance than run purely on bodges, lies and bullshit. Edited February 12, 2015 by Ian C (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-Ricky Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Massey Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Ha ha well said Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bignum Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Sticking up for that piggy back again Ian:) its done you proud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
costas1 Posted February 12, 2015 Author Share Posted February 12, 2015 The conversation is getting more serious i think Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanisLupus Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 A "remap" is considered changing the existing values of the stock ECU. That's more a replacement map, like the MINES ECU etc. Swapping an entire ECU out isn't a remap. That's a "different ECU". So that's the difference Please do, never heard of it. A stock ECU isn't capable of running a single turbo. Funnily enough that's about the one "lazy American" thing we've mostly all resisted, sticking on a single turbo and pretending the stock ECU will still work... But you're endorsing it in your rant against "lazy American" things What could be less PnP than cracking open the stock ECU and soldering in tiny components, hoping you don't wreck the whole thing? I've just skim read that article and it's comical in how much it gets wrong. If you're holding that up as 'proof' of 'how it used to be done' and how the stock ECU can be used to do everything, I'd suggest re-reading it with the rose-tinted glasses off and some reading glasses on. Pictures re modded single Turbo ECU with Map Switching attached.... I don't know if I've caught a sensible Spot here. I respect your work on the emanage ultimate and followed all your work with big interest Ian. Don't get me wrong in that case. But for me a remap has always been modding either the software on the ecu or modding the ROM directly by unsoldering it and soldering it back on. But if it has another term for you then it's okay for me i won't get on hair-splitting whether it's modding or remapping it doesn't matter to the subject in the end. Fact is that a single properly mapped ECU will always be better than a piggy back system because you are not relying on modding in and/or output signals. You yourself had a year long problem with hot starts(which dozens of other users of the Emanage had too) because the emanage didn't cope for this right until you had a work around. Why would we change to a Syvecs etc if a Piggy back offers the same level of performance? It can't and never will. Re the article, I've had another one with more details about the turbos etc but can't find it in any way. Also many other links with Hex Tables of the Stock ROMs and such things are lost somewhere in the depths of the Internet. Thank my killed Laptop for this... I'm not trying to take a piss on anyone but I've done hours and hours of research and wouldn't be talking about it if i had not. P.s.: Opening an ECU and soldering the ROMs is done in no time with the right tools with no danger in destroying anything Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mellonman Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I think what you speak of is ......... Chipped ..... changing ROM Remapped..... changing infomation on EEPROM They are two different things in your hours of research I would of thought you would of found that out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bignum Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Ians starting problem was injector related iirc bud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-Ricky Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Just for the record I have also mapped my own big single (and several other cars) using EMU and never had any real problems, other than the odd one to do with the learning curve. research and hands on mapping are two very different things! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanisLupus Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I think what you speak of is ......... Chipped ..... changing ROM Remapped..... changing infomation on EEPROM They are two different things in your hours of research I would of thought you would of found that out May be the case did not pay much attention to naming as it's called chip Tuning over here in both cases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
costas1 Posted February 15, 2015 Author Share Posted February 15, 2015 so what's the outcome here? a stock ecu is better if you know how to remapped it or an aftermarket piggy bank will do the job? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luxluc Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 I was running a piggyback ECU when I was running my Supra on BPU setup. I never had issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanisLupus Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 The best way today is to get a stand alone. You sadly won't find anyone that will do the stock ECU apparently anymore as there was no market for it and it's deemed not mappable/moddable or whatever you want to call it. The cost efficient way is a piggy back. It will do its job. Bignum AFAIR the problem was solved creating an rpm cell for starting so you could influence the fuelling in hot start conditions to cope for the hot fuel building up bubbles preventing a good hot start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mellonman Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 I have a piggy back ecu runing my single turbo no issues Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-Ricky Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 so what's the outcome here? a stock ecu is better if you know how to remapped it or an aftermarket piggy bank will do the job? The std ECU as you have found out doesn't respond great to BPU and increased boost. The likelihood of getting a decently mapped std ECU outside of Japan is unlikely, and the ones you can get IE the likes of Mines etc, are usually of unknown mapping. The easy option is to add a piggyback, I would advise Greddy Emanage ultimate which is very good for the money, and in the right hands is fine for even a big single conversion. The next stage is a stand alone ecu, but they are expensive for a decent one, but just as with piggybacks your dependent on the skills of the mapper to get things right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
costas1 Posted February 16, 2015 Author Share Posted February 16, 2015 ok thx tricky..you are the boss..i will let you know what happened with mine in a few days after i flow test my injectors..the tuner insists that a bpu supra running on 1.3 bar and lean can make this power..i told him that something is wrong with his dyno..lol..maybe i am not welcomed there anymore..we will see..plus here they tend to make all the cars running 11.5 -12 afr..no matter the mods..they say its quite safe..i saw your reply on another post saying that for bpu is normal to hit 10? so i am quite far from that..lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wile e coyote Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 well what about the vvti ecu as that's 32 bit mines bpu and last dyno it hit 420bhp, few years ago now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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