rider Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 I've purchase a HID main beam kit for the Supra and checking videos online of fitting tips came across this video from Auto Express that says fitting HID bulbs into units designed for halogen bulbs is illegal. My exhaust isn't strictly legal so that doesn't bother me to much. The main concern is they mention there is a good chance of a MOT failure due to the light pattern. So, my question of those who have fitted HID conversions to the Supra headlight is, has it caused problems at MOT time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dim Sum Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 I had mine over the last four years and I had no issue with M.O.T or traffic police. There are some M.O.T tester within the forum so I wait till they can confirm it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham1984 Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 I believe it comes down to light washer jets and self levelers must work..... if you don't have items of that sort from stock then it is not a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 The main requirement is projector lenses. Supra has them anyway so no worries. As long as you set them sensibly they will work fine, won't glare and will pass an MOT no problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abz Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 As Scott says, no issues MOT time for the past 5 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Massey Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 Technically yes they are illegal, due to issues mentioned ^^^ But I've never known anyone to be pulled or fail an MOT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 Technically yes they are illegal, due to issues mentioned ^^^ But I've never known anyone to be pulled or fail an MOT They aren't illegal, what makes you think that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drift_bear Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 Been running HID's in various cars over the years and had no issues with mot or police Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 (edited) They aren't illegal, what makes you think that? Yes they are, if you follow the MOT testing book to the letter. If you have HID's you need to have: Projector Lenses Self Levelling Motors (not height adjust) Correct Pattern for HID Headlight Washers No more than 4800-6000k bulbs As you say, you've passed MOT's because it hasn't been followed to the letter, which is fine, until you get pulled by a stickler of a policeman, if you're sensible and don't have 8000-12000k bulbs you'd be fine in most circumstances as people obviously don't know the proper rules. At most, a UK car will have 3 out of the 5, still illegal. Edited March 6, 2014 by Ric spelling (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 (edited) I believe the headlamp and bulb *UNIT* needs CE approval or has passed the tests sample imports face. Basically modifying none HID headlamps to take HID bulbs is illegal. I guess an insurance company faced with you running a surgeon with six dependents over at night and maiming / killing him might find the mod of some interest Having road tested a MKIV where the HID lights just went out completely, at night, on an unlit road, I am not a fan of headlight mods done on the front drive with Scotclocks and sticky tape, with the energisers hanging by their wires Edited March 6, 2014 by Chris Wilson (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SupraP-Z Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 As above really, they aren't illegal, I've been using HID's for years now. The supra has projector lenses and they are adjustable so there shouldn't be an issue...saying that I wouldn't put them in the High beam housing, there's no point, they are used for a split second, you may end up decreasing the life of them (they hate being turned on and off continuously)and there are no projectors for the light to be funnelled through I.e no cut-off point. Dipped beam and fogs are fine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Massey Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 As above really, they aren't illegal, I've been using HID's for years now. The supra has projector lenses and they are adjustable so there shouldn't be an issue...saying that I wouldn't put them in the High beam housing, there's no point, they are used for a split second, you may end up decreasing the life of them (they hate being turned on and off continuously)and there are no projectors for the light to be funnelled through I.e no cut-off point. Dipped beam and fogs are fine It has to be auto adjusting, with washers. The light itself needs to be approved, as well as every other aspect of the light. Modern cars that come as standard are allowed because they comply with EU legislation. A conversion is not legal if you place the bulbs into your existing lights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Massey Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 http://www.danielsternlighting.com/tech/bulbs/Hid/conversions/conversions.html http://www.phoenixautobulbs.co.uk/tp/hid-kits-new-legislation-2012/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rider Posted March 6, 2014 Author Share Posted March 6, 2014 (edited) Thanks for the replies guys. To sum up no one appears to have ever had any MOT problems even though guidelines that preclude HID conversions in existing light units would deem that conversions should lead to MOT failure. Maybe the guidelines are being ignored or maybe they are too recent to have filtered through to the guy under the ramp? My Supra is getting on for 20 years old and by todays standards the headlight beam is pretty weak, or maybe its just my eyesight that's fading? The original light fitting and harness isn't compromised with fitting a HID kit so I can't really see any downside to going ahead. If MOT stations start to apply the regulations by the book on HID lights then it is nothing more than unplugging a couple of connectors to reinstate the halogen lamps. Edited March 6, 2014 by rider (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SupraP-Z Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 It has to be auto adjusting, with washers. The light itself needs to be approved, as well as every other aspect of the light. Modern cars that come as standard are allowed because they comply with EU legislation. A conversion is not legal if you place the bulbs into your existing lights. Strictly speaking yes, it has to have self levelling headlights and washers, but I've never had a problem with HID's in my supe. Ive been to several MOT places, some have failed me on emissions (double decat N/A) and have passed me on the lamps, and I don't have washers or self levelling, it didn't come with the car. Its only a real problem if you've got the HID's in non projector housings. As said above, if you're sensible about it, have them set at the correct height (there is a cutoff point) and they aren't a silly colour, not dangerous to other road users...then most MOT places will pass it - Atleast that's my experience anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Massey Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 Strictly speaking yes, it has to have self levelling headlights and washers, but I've never had a problem with HID's in my supe. Ive been to several MOT places, some have failed me on emissions (double decat N/A) and have passed me on the lamps, and I don't have washers or self levelling, it didn't come with the car. Its only a real problem if you've got the HID's in non projector housings. As said above, if you're sensible about it, have them set at the correct height (there is a cutoff point) and they aren't a silly colour, not dangerous to other road users...then most MOT places will pass it - Atleast that's my experience anyway The same can be said for speeding? Loud exhausts, seat belts, drink driving, using fog lights when there is no fog etc A lot of people never have a problem doing them things and never been caught. My old NA always passed an MOT on emissions and noise, but my mate got pulled for his exhaust being too loud, and mine was much much louder. It's swings and roundabouts really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SupraP-Z Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 The same can be said for speeding? Loud exhausts, seat belts, drink driving, using fog lights when there is no fog etc A lot of people never have a problem doing them things and never been caught. My old NA always passed an MOT on emissions and noise, but my mate got pulled for his exhaust being too loud, and mine was much much louder. It's swings and roundabouts really. Some of the things you mentioned are criminal offences. Fog lights on when they aren't supposed to be on, that's the drivers stupidity really. These are dipped beams...a legal requirement. Put it this way, 4x4 cars like range rovers and the sort, have extremely blinding headlights - from factory! they need to adjust their self levelling system to point to whats ahead of them...not into the eyes of oncoming drivers. the HID's that us normal road users put in our cars are less hazardous if used in the correct manner. If our supras didn't have projector lenses, then fair enough, I wouldn't put them in. How are our cars any different to any other newer cars with inbuilt HID systems, new mercs, bmws, range rovers? Ours are adjustable manually...so we set them to a height where it doesnt bother any other road users, choose a stock temperature bulb, they look factory fitted! The HID kit ive invested in is CE certified and legal, I have projector lenses, my beam pattern is correct and not scattered all round the place. So whats illegal? that they haven't got washers? How would that affect other road users? Our projector housings have a metal sheet going across to cut off the top of the beam of light, so even if the lights got dirty, it wouldn't change the pattern or height of it in any way. Ive been stopped by enough traffic police in the supra, and I mean a lot. Not one of them have mentioned anything about my HID's, some of them have been right a**holes too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Massey Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 Some of the things you mentioned are criminal offences. Fog lights on when they aren't supposed to be on, that's the drivers stupidity really. These are dipped beams...a legal requirement. Put it this way, 4x4 cars like range rovers and the sort, have extremely blinding headlights - from factory! they need to adjust their self levelling system to point to whats ahead of them...not into the eyes of oncoming drivers. the HID's that us normal road users put in our cars are less hazardous if used in the correct manner. If our supras didn't have projector lenses, then fair enough, I wouldn't put them in. How are our cars any different to any other newer cars with inbuilt HID systems, new mercs, bmws, range rovers? Ours are adjustable manually...so we set them to a height where it doesnt bother any other road users, choose a stock temperature bulb, they look factory fitted! The HID kit ive invested in is CE certified and legal, I have projector lenses, my beam pattern is correct and not scattered all round the place. So whats illegal? that they haven't got washers? How would that affect other road users? Our projector housings have a metal sheet going across to cut off the top of the beam of light, so even if the lights got dirty, it wouldn't change the pattern or height of it in any way. Ive been stopped by enough traffic police in the supra, and I mean a lot. Not one of them have mentioned anything about my HID's, some of them have been right a**holes too. Yes there are offences, just like aftermarket HID's. As you've stated twice now, ours are manually adjusted, HID's need automatic adjustment and washers, and an EU approved lens. Your HID may be CE certified, I'm not doubting that but is it legal? No, if it's not automatic adjusting, has washers, the lens needs to be EU certified, not sure on the date, but it came out after our supras. So the difference from ours to newer cars, well the age for one. So with your reckoning, I can out HID's on a 50 year old car? As long as it doesn't blind people? I've been stopped enough times in my old supra, not once was mentioned about my exhaust, still didn't make it legal. Will as 3" straight through, no cats and no silencers and was about 115db. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SupraP-Z Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 Yes there are offences, just like aftermarket HID's. As you've stated twice now, ours are manually adjusted, HID's need automatic adjustment and washers, and an EU approved lens. Your HID may be CE certified, I'm not doubting that but is it legal? No, if it's not automatic adjusting, has washers, the lens needs to be EU certified, not sure on the date, but it came out after our supras. So the difference from ours to newer cars, well the age for one. So with your reckoning, I can out HID's on a 50 year old car? As long as it doesn't blind people? I've been stopped enough times in my old supra, not once was mentioned about my exhaust, still didn't make it legal. Will as 3" straight through, no cats and no silencers and was about 115db. Then how about the thousands of people who put HID's in non projector housings? they are the ones causing the problems, not us. Do you have HID's in your lights? The ones that are automatically adjusted often adjust to a silly height and blind oncoming drivers. there is a range rover in our compound right now which has both self levelling and headlight washers, when the car switches on, they self level...and the cutoff point is beyond the top of signboards and the like....ridiculously high for such a high sitting vehicle. Being electronic adjusting, if they malfunction...then what? Manually adjusted headlights aren't going to move from their position. This particular car has no marking stating that it is EU certified, the only stamp apart from numbers and bulb size is SAE...which my facelift headlights on the supra also has. The lens of this range rover is completely clear, on my facelift headlights the part where the dipped beam shines through...also completely clear. So tell me the difference between them? Maybe the plastic it is manufactured from is slightly different? Maybe it would affect light output, lumens may increase/decrease. If the 50 year old car has projector housings, and its dipped beam has a lense with a cutoff point, and its adjustable, and you have a sensible level adjusted on it and a sensible temperature bulb...me personally? yeah I would put HID's in it. Now Uk spec supes have headlight washers, not sure if they are self levelling or not, but you are saying that it would still be illegal to put HID's in them? Check this out: http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/35636/watchdog-unfair-mot-failures The difference in wording between VOSA and DVA. Our headlights complied with rules and regulations when it was built and imported into the UK...these are new rules that have been introduced. Even then... I don't see the difference between our headlights and a new cars headlights, both have adjustability, both have projector housings and cut off points. both have clear lenses (supra facelift headlights have a clear section where the dipped and fogs are)...the only real difference is washers...which make no difference to beam pattern whatsoever. So what sets them apart despite age? Not much tbh. I will put a pic up a picture of the cut off point between a supra and a newer car...they are almost identical, with the same rainbow effect on the top. The light is concentrated in a certain area and is not scattered around the place. How much more do you want? Im not arguing with you, I mean i see your point, even with the exhaust levels - law is law. But its a law that should apply where necessary. VOSA states that if a car has the washing and self-levelling system then they would check it and it will need to be in full working order. If it’s not there, then they would give the owner the benefit of the doubt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 (edited) Yes they are, if you follow the MOT testing book to the letter. If you have HID's you need to have: Projector Lenses Self Levelling Motors (not height adjust) Correct Pattern for HID Headlight Washers No more than 4800-6000k bulbs As you say, you've passed MOT's because it hasn't been followed to the letter, which is fine, until you get pulled by a stickler of a policeman, if you're sensible and don't have 8000-12000k bulbs you'd be fine in most circumstances as people obviously don't know the proper rules. At most, a UK car will have 3 out of the 5, still illegal. No you don't, you are only required to have working washers and self levelers if they are on the car when purchased. There are LOADS of cars that came as standard without either a few years back, they are still just as legal now as they are when the car was sold. The difference is that all production cars NOW with HIDs (as of 2012 I believe) must have self levelling and washers. When it comes to MOT time, if they are there... they must be functional. Think of it like the spare wheel in your car (if you have one). A small a-side to this is that HIDs were an optional extra on the supra. Edited March 6, 2014 by Scott (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SupraP-Z Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 No you don't, you are only required to have working washers and self levelers if they are on the car when purchased. There are LOADS of cars that came as standard without either a few years back, they are still just as legal now as they are when the car was sold. The difference is that all production cars NOW with HIDs (as of 2012 I believe) must have self levelling and washers. When it comes to MOT time, if they are there... they must be functional. Think of it like the spare wheel in your car (if you have one). A small a-side to this is that HIDs were an optional extra on the supra. Thank you Scott, this is exactly what I was trying to explain in the second half of my essay the article I posted - says the exact same thing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Massey Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roadsafety/drs/hidheadlamps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roadsafety/drs/hidheadlamps Link doesn't work, but after a quick search on the site I found this... https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/205920/13_013.pdf Response point 6 covers it nicely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Massey Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 This was the link sorry http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20120606172804/http:/assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/dft-information-sheets/aftermarket-hid-headlamps.pdf And on the next link, rule114, You MUST NOT use any lights in a way which would dazzle or cause discomfort to other road users, including pedestrians, cyclists and horse riders https://www.gov.uk/general-rules-all-drivers-riders-103-to-158/lighting-requirements-113-to-116 On a separate note, rule 113 states You MUST ensure all sidelights and rear registration plate lights are lit between sunset and sunrise use headlights at night, except on a road which has lit street lighting. These roads are generally restricted to a speed limit of 30 mph (48 km/h) unless otherwise specified use headlights when visibility is seriously reduced (see Rule 226). So we don't need headlights on a road with street lighting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 This was the link sorry http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20120606172804/http:/assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/dft-information-sheets/aftermarket-hid-headlamps.pdf And on the next link, rule114, You MUST NOT use any lights in a way which would dazzle or cause discomfort to other road users, including pedestrians, cyclists and horse riders https://www.gov.uk/general-rules-all-drivers-riders-103-to-158/lighting-requirements-113-to-116 On a separate note, rule 113 states You MUST ensure all sidelights and rear registration plate lights are lit between sunset and sunrise use headlights at night, except on a road which has lit street lighting. These roads are generally restricted to a speed limit of 30 mph (48 km/h) unless otherwise specified use headlights when visibility is seriously reduced (see Rule 226). So we don't need headlights on a road with street lighting? Absolutely none of that is an MOT fail though. Buying and selling would have to be a grey area as there is no concrete way of determining what is designed for HID bulbs and what isn't. The Supra came with an optional HID kit. There is no fail on the Supra for having HID lights. The fail would come if they are improperly set/installed/used/etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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