Guest Terry S Posted March 13, 2003 Share Posted March 13, 2003 Guys, Alex was asking me about fuel pumps. I told him that the UK Supra pump is the "Daddy". Before anyone runs off to upgrade their fuel pump, take a good look at this : http://www.stealth316.com/2-fuelpumpguide.htm FYI this is what was found on a test of the HKS pump: Below are some pictures of the HKS fuel pump that I purchased. I returned it after seeing it was the Cosmo pump, which flows less than the Supra pump I already had. I cannot caution people enough to avoid the "HKS" pump (if it is actually Denso 195130-0771) when it is sold at the exorbitant price of $400 to $800. Nathan or anyone can you confirm the PN's on the HKS pump offered in the UK? FWIW I am running 2 Walbro's but thats only because they draw significantly less current so you can run two on stock wiring where as this would not be possible with two UK Supra pumps. Conclusions Denso fuel pump 195130-1020 (the Supra Turbo MKIV pump) is one of the best in-tank upgrade choices if you are using injectors up to 550 cc/min and are providing at least 13.5 volts to the pump. When higher voltage is supplied, the Supra pump is good for injectors up to 880 cc/min. At 13.5 supplied volts no other in-tank pump flows significantly more fuel up to 70 psi line pressure or 27 psi boost. It is a direct drop-in replacement; all other non-Denso choices require some modification to the assembly. It is as quiet as the stock pump. Best of all, it can cost only about $200. One disadvantage of the Supra pump is its relatively heavy current draw and large decrease in flow as supplied voltage lowers. Good, heavy-gauge wiring (meaning re-wiring the fuel pump electrical circuit) is a requirement to get the most out of this pump. The Walbro 341 model (also called the 255 lph HP) flows about 10 to 40 lph less than the Supra Turbo pump up to about 70 psi, when 13.5 volts are supplied to both pumps. However, at 12 supplied volts, the Walbro 341 outflows the Denso 195130-1020 above 50 psi line pressure (compare John Cribb's Supra pump data to the Walbro charts). The Walbro 341 is an excellent choice for 450 cc/min injectors, especially if the fuel pump has not been re-wired. It can be used with 550 cc/min injectors if 13.5 volts are supplied. Some slight modification to the pump assembly is required and it is not as quiet as the Denso pumps. The price is even less than the Supra pump at $100 to $150. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Posted March 13, 2003 Share Posted March 13, 2003 Nathan or anyone can you confirm the PN's on the HKS pump offered in the UK? [/b] Terry, I saw this a LONG time ago. I'm not going to say this guy is lying but the results he got are very different to the ones we got. Make of that what you will. The HKS pump is the highest flowing I have come accross, followed by the Walbro, then the UK Supra. The Walbro isn't far behind the HKS pump, and like you say has very low current consumption, and is also cheap to boot which makes it the 'best' for most applicatins. I have seen the test data, with my own eyes, from people who I highly respect in terms of fuel systems ie FSE. Nathan TDI PLC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Martin F Posted March 13, 2003 Share Posted March 13, 2003 What a coincidence, i was browsing that same article yesterday. Haven't read it in detail yet, but i was also shocked to see on the tables towards the bottom how well the stock UK\US pump flowed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam W Posted March 13, 2003 Share Posted March 13, 2003 Is my single Walbro GSS341 gonna be man enough to cope with 720cc injectors at 500bhp or so? I would love to avoid dropping the fuel tank again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry S Posted March 13, 2003 Share Posted March 13, 2003 I have seen a chart from FSE showing their pumps to outflow a Supra pump but it doesn't state it's a UK pump, so it could be very misleading & actually be a JDM Supra pump. All the other test I have seen show the UK/US Supra pump out performing Walbro's slightly. Nathan, can you publish your test results on the HKS pump along with where & how they were tested so that we can clear this up. Also, are the HKS pumps sold in this Country the same PN as that one highlighted?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Posted March 13, 2003 Share Posted March 13, 2003 Originally posted by Terry S I have seen a chart from FSE showing their pumps to outflow a Supra pump but it doesn't state it's a UK pump, so it could be very misleading & actually be a JDM Supra pump. All the other test I have seen show the UK/US Supra pump out performing Walbro's slightly. If FSE have been publishing data that I paid for then I defo won't be happy...... Most of you have seen the data I obtained re TDI pump kits (which use Walbro) against OE pumps, shown at http://www.tdi-plc.com/suprafuelpumpdata.html Nathan, can you publish your test results on the HKS pump along with where & how they were tested so that we can clear this up. Also, are the HKS pumps sold in this Country the same PN as that one highlighted?? I'm not going to publish the flow data I have for the HKS pump. I have my reasons, and I can assure you that it is not because I am trying to be difficult. All I will say is that HKS rate them at 280lph against the Walbro 341 at 255lph. If anyone doubts the ratings then they'll just have to buy pumps and get them tested at their own expense cos I ain't doing it anymore. Regarding the part numbers, I really can't be bothered checking. I've lost all interest in the figures published by the guy in question and I'm certainly not going to spend time defending an HKS pump. FWIW, I'd guess all the part numbers are the same though (they are all rated at the same lph). Bottom line: believe what you want to believe unless people want to cough up and do the R&D themslves. Regards, Nathan TDI PLC PS Adam: you should be fine, but like anything get it checked on a wideband whilst monitoring rail pressure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jez sutherland Posted March 13, 2003 Share Posted March 13, 2003 I'd be interested to know at what voltage the supra pump is run at as standard - this appears to make a significant difference. Could this also help explain the differences in everyones test results? Or am I being thick as usual? Jeremy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raoul H Posted March 13, 2003 Share Posted March 13, 2003 For the J-SPEC, I seem to remember reading it was 9v at low boost/rpm and 12v at high boost/rpm. The switchover to 12v typically occuring at ~4000rpm during the transition phase where #2 turbo goes online. The UK-SPECS operate in a similar manner although the switchover might occur at a different point in the rev range (~4500?) At 13.5v it suggests to me that the UK-SPEC pump flow results were taken for high boost/rpm scenarios. Rgds, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted March 13, 2003 Share Posted March 13, 2003 AFAIK the electrical system in our cars runs at 12V max....how would you go about running the pump at say 14v? Do you just use a 14v battery and run to 14v capable wires to the pump (in the most simplistic of models)?? Nathan, your TDI pump, I am stumped as how they can flow so much more according to your graph and yet cost less than a UK spec one from a UK dealer....all sounds a bit too good to be true. Have you had it tested by an independant company? I don't want to doubt you but it all seems too good - won't mind if it is though. EDIT - Nathan there are two different prices for the pump £150 on the staged development page and £195 on the quick list, so which is it? I was talking to Terry as i am hoping to richen up the topend of the rev range... Fuel Dampner Bypass Fuel Pump and Adjustable/rising rate FPR are on the wish list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Usmann A Posted March 13, 2003 Share Posted March 13, 2003 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cribbj Posted March 13, 2003 Share Posted March 13, 2003 Hello everyone, thought I'd submit a viewpoint to this thread as I commissioned some of the recent testing at Kinsler for the OEM Supra pump. Firstly, these fuel pumps are extremely sensitive to the voltage being applied. Therefore any comparison between flows of various pumps requires the voltage to be given as well. It's as meaningless to compare flows without voltages as it is to compare flows without knowing the pressures. Secondly, neither Jeff Lucius (a Dodge Stealth owner) nor myself (a MKIV Supra owner) have any axes to grind with HKS or any aftermarket vendors, however if HKS are indeed simply rebadging a Mazda Cosmo Denso pump, and charging triple the price for it, then personally I'd rather buy the OEM Supra pump which is proven to flow more under the same conditions. We're currently trying to get a group together to commission the same testing on the Walbro pump, since all figures we have to date are based only on Walbro's published data, not from independent testing. If anyone has really deep pockets, it would be very interesting to buy & test the current HKS offering as well. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminator Posted March 13, 2003 Share Posted March 13, 2003 Good to hear from you. Welcome to the MKIV BBS. We will await the outcome of the tests with interest. Keep us posted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz Walker Posted March 14, 2003 Share Posted March 14, 2003 Originally posted by Terminator Good to hear from you. Welcome to the MKIV BBS. We will await the outcome of the tests with interest. Keep us posted. Likewise, very interesting Gaz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Posted March 14, 2003 Share Posted March 14, 2003 Originally posted by Alex Holdroyd Nathan, your TDI pump, I am stumped as how they can flow so much more according to your graph and yet cost less than a UK spec one from a UK dealer....all sounds a bit too good to be true. Have you had it tested by an independant company? I don't want to doubt you but it all seems too good - won't mind if it is though. Not quite sure how to answer that. I don't have control over Toyota pricing! Yes, stock pumps are around £250, our pump kits are £150, and as I have already said, and shown data, they do indeed perform better. Like I also said, believe what you want. Independant company? We paid to have FSE test all the pumps shown on our graph if it matters. I'm not quite sure why I am getting the feeling of disbelief here. If anyone wants to disregard my findings, and you are welcome too, then do your own research. Please don't ask me to supply data and then doubt my word.... EDIT - Nathan there are two different prices for the pump £150 on the staged development page and £195 on the quick list, so which is it? The price of £195 is wrong. That was the original price we had when we made the kits up. Demand brought the prices down. I will get it amended. Thanks for letting me know. Regards, Nathan TDI PLC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Posted March 14, 2003 Share Posted March 14, 2003 Originally posted by cribbj if HKS are indeed simply rebadging a Mazda Cosmo Denso pump, and charging triple the price for it, then personally I'd rather buy the OEM Supra pump which is proven to flow more under the same conditions. I thought the Dodge guy's test said that the HKS pump WAS a re-badged Mazda one. You are now saying 'if'. Do you have any relation to the test done? Don't get me wrong, I am as independant as anyone else on this. Yes, I am an HKS agent but I have never sold an HKS pump for a Supra, nor do I intend to, purely on the grounds that the 341 offers nearly as much for less than half the price. Indeed, even if a 341 isn't providing enough fuel, you can buy 2 of them which will provide far more flow than the HKS one and you'll still have change from a single HKS pump. All I'm saying is that the flow figures for what I have seen compared to others doesn't add up, and I'm asking people to bear that in mind. Chose who you want to listen to, and if you can't decide then the only option is to get your wallet out. One thing to think about.....theres a lot of pretty quick Skylines out there running an HKS pump kit. Regards, Nathan TDI PLC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Posted March 14, 2003 Share Posted March 14, 2003 And ANOTHER thing......(I shouldn't have got involved in this... To throw another spanner in the works a lot of the US tests put their initial figures out in GPH (gallons per hour) then convert them to lph. I think you'll find there are about 3.7 US litres to a US gallon rather than the 4.54 euro litres to a euro gallon.... Won't make any odds when directly comparing pumps on the same test of course but worth bearing in mind when comparing flow data from over the pond. Heres hoping that someone else can get some figures from an HKS pump. I'd be just as intested as anyone else to see what turns up.. Regards, Nathan. TDI PLC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry S Posted March 14, 2003 Share Posted March 14, 2003 Welcome John. Look forward to reading the results of any future tests. Keep us posted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digsy Posted March 14, 2003 Share Posted March 14, 2003 Originally posted by Nathan I think you'll find there are about 3.7 US litres to a US gallon rather than the 4.54 euro litres to a euro gallon.... Yep. 1 US gallon = 3.79 litres 1 UK gallon = 4.55 litres (rounding up). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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