New Developments in Supra Turbo applications?

[Digsy]

Here's a couple of extracts from BMW's own techincal papers on their recent twin and tri-turbo diesel engines showing the operating modes of the charging system. Note that the tri-turbo has two intercoolers. The industry acronym for this kind of setup is "R2S" *Regulated Two Stage" and there is some good info on the web about it, especially on the Borg Warner site.

 

The setup in the pictures a few posts back looks a little bit different. Is this for the gasoline engine? If so I'd like to see a proper schematic for it if anyone has one. The diesel ones get a bit confusing because of the VGT actuators.

BMW 6-Cylinder Tri-Turbo Diesel.pdf

The New BMW 4-6-Cylinder Diesel Engine with 2-Stage Turbocharging.pdf

Edited September 19, 2013 by Digsy (see edit history)

[Nodalmighty]

I'm looking to use twin VNT turbos in a compound setup on my Passat TDI.

 

Lyndon.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Nodalmighty (see edit history)

[Ian C]

Only glanced at the photos, but is that not COMPOUND turbocharging? I can't see how it could be sequential with differentially flowing turbos, one would back feed the other? Looks like the small one pressure feeds the intake side of the bigger one?

 

I think it'll only be compound briefly, mainly doing it while the big turbo gets up to speed and on boost. Sending the slightly boosted air through the small turbo is the equivalent of the reed valve in the IACV bleeding boost from #2 as it spins up on the Supra sequential system. Just simpler, cheaper, and easier to package. Once the big turbo is up and running, a valve opens to allow the boosted air from the big turbo straight into the intake stream, bypassing the smaller turbo. Path of least resistance means most of the boosted air will go that way. Running the bigger turbo off the exhaust should also act as a wastegate to the small turbo to stop it overspeeding I guess.

[TBDevelopments]

the other reason to run compound turbochargers is to get the higher pressure range from the package in general. So what pressure are they running on the BMW as i know diesels can reliably run alot more pressure than there petrol versions.

 

Prime example when playing with the 3sgte's we had issues getting the large 4096r over 35psi boost just because of the available gasses from the engine. i designed a system to get it upto 50psi from that turbo which is where it wanted to be really with the setup we had, but had to use a compound setup

 

If you don't want to run the very high boost pressures the compound seemed a little overkill and complicated for a street application. Again if its drag related then perfect.

 

Tim

[Ian C]

It's not permanently compound, though. Hence the butterfly valve in the intake system after the big turbo.

[TBDevelopments]

oh yes i know in that case i was mainly talking about compound setups in general. I really doubt anyone is going to put the time and money into developing something like that for the supra which will only given marginal gains over similar setups.

 

from what i can make out its just a way of running effectively a sequential turbocharger setup, but a way around having 1 large turbo and 1 small turbo over needing them to be the same size to prevent any back feeding issues. over a true high boost compound setup.

 

Tim

[johnny g]

2jz VVTi, GTX3076r on T4 divided housing, 1.06 a/r. Near instant response and should deliver 500/500 on a cast manifold

[mellonman]

i dont think anyone is developing anything new for a 20 year old supra to be fair apart from David P,

i hate to say it but the supras day has been and gone all i can say i was happy to have one and still have one and love it,,

personally i like the sequential of the supra and thought it was great but yet people still rip it out and put stockers into TTC which is the complete opersite to this thread crazy

 

that being said T67 DBB .68 a/r FTW

[Ian C]

2jz VVTi, GTX3076r on T4 divided housing, 1.06 a/r. Near instant response and should deliver 500/500 on a cast manifold

 

GTX30 series are way too small for our engines according to the turbo maps. It'll spin up like mad but choke up at higher boost and revs badly. Also, lots of people are reporting the GTX30 to be a very poor upgrade from a GT30 on Mitsi evo's and BMWs etc as the limiting factor is the exhaust side on that turbo. I found many reports of that across various car clubs while doing my research, and not one saying it was any better.

[j_jza80]

i hate to say it but the supras day has been and gone

 

I don't agree with that sentiment at all. Because the Supra relies so heavily on turbocharging for its performance, and advances in turbo technology will have a big impact on Supras. As turbos are now the 'in thing', we can expect great things in the years to come.

 

Also, none of these newer cars are anywhere near as mechanically tough as a Supra.

[Ian C]

I swear if I knew someone good with metal and wasn't already knee deep in x amount of other projects I'd have a go at replicating that BMW setup

[Wez]

I swear if I knew someone good with metal and wasn't already knee deep in x amount of other projects I'd have a go at replicating that BMW setup

 

How about DanDan giving it go

[Ian C]

How about DanDan giving it go

 

It wouldn't be too expensive either providing you already had the guts of a stock system and a normal single turbo.

 

You could re-use the stock log manifold, the IACV and its VSV, the EGCV and its VSV, and the single turbo external wastegate as all the control valves. The E-Manage ultimate has enough fully mappable outputs to control the EGCV and IACV against boost and revs. Use a stock turbo as the small one and a 35-size turbo as the bigger one, a bunch of silicone tubing to ferkle the intake side together and a combo of castings and normal exhaust metal for the hot side plumbing.

 

It wouldn't be pretty but that's not the point of a prototype. The bends wouldn't have to be the shortest or smoothest or the tubing even match up in diameter particularly well, the point would be knocking up the system and a basic control strategy. I'm idly doodling the flow maps on my notepad at work If it worked and showed the improvement it promises, it could revolutionise aftermarket setups

[Jellybean]

It wouldn't be too expensive either providing you already had the guts of a stock system and a normal single turbo.

 

You could re-use the stock log manifold, the IACV and its VSV, the EGCV and its VSV, and the single turbo external wastegate as all the control valves. The E-Manage ultimate has enough fully mappable outputs to control the EGCV and IACV against boost and revs. Use a stock turbo as the small one and a 35-size turbo as the bigger one, a bunch of silicone tubing to ferkle the intake side together and a combo of castings and normal exhaust metal for the hot side plumbing.

 

It wouldn't be pretty but that's not the point of a prototype. The bends wouldn't have to be the shortest or smoothest or the tubing even match up in diameter particularly well, the point would be knocking up the system and a basic control strategy. I'm idly doodling the flow maps on my notepad at work If it worked and showed the improvement it promises, it could revolutionise aftermarket setups

 

Do i get the rights to it Ian, considering I started the thread LOL

[Jellybean]

[mellonman]

I don't agree with that sentiment at all. Because the Supra relies so heavily on turbocharging for its performance, and advances in turbo technology will have a big impact on Supras. As turbos are now the 'in thing', we can expect great things in the years to come.

 

Also, none of these newer cars are anywhere near as mechanically tough as a Supra.

 

the problem i see is that they are now becoming rare, yes i grant that the fabrication and bolt on parts of turbos will progress as always but the will never be specific for the road going supra. but will be just a general turbo car application.

 

yes the 2jz is tough but is it still being used ?

[Chris Wilson]

the problem i see is that they are now becoming rare, yes i grant that the fabrication and bolt on parts of turbos will progress as always but the will never be specific for the road going supra. but will be just a general turbo car application.

 

yes the 2jz is tough but is it still being used ?

 

 

The 1JZ and 2JZ are tough, but heavy and high friction. The big bearing journal sizes, plenty of crank pin overlap, thick piston rings and hefty cam journals all make for a very strong engine. Don't forget the block, too. Immensely heavy, but very strong. Modern engines are going to alloy or metal matrix blocks, narrow crank journals, narrow cam journals etcetera to reduce internal friction and increase economy, few of these things make for a bullet proof engine when modified. The new GTR has suffered block / liner problems as the thing is quite lightly constructed, engine wise, with not as much strength reserves as stock as a hefty cast iron block. Whilst F1 and Superbikes have shown an incredibly powerful engine can also be light and with low internal friction, the tricks used put the build cost way outside anything a manufacturer could utilise in a road car engine. One can only hope legislation doesn't kill off the aftermarket engine tuning and component industry, as many stock engines need serious mods to produce serious power over and above what they were designed for.

[Digsy]

The 1JZ and 2JZ are tough, but heavy and high friction. The big bearing journal sizes, plenty of crank pin overlap, thick piston rings and hefty cam journals all make for a very strong engine. Don't forget the block, too. Immensely heavy, but very strong. Modern engines are going to alloy or metal matrix blocks, narrow crank journals, narrow cam journals etcetera to reduce internal friction and increase economy, few of these things make for a bullet proof engine when modified. The new GTR has suffered block / liner problems as the thing is quite lightly constructed, engine wise, with not as much strength reserves as stock as a hefty cast iron block. Whilst F1 and Superbikes have shown an incredibly powerful engine can also be light and with low internal friction, the tricks used put the build cost way outside anything a manufacturer could utilise in a road car engine. One can only hope legislation doesn't kill off the aftermarket engine tuning and component industry, as many stock engines need serious mods to produce serious power over and above what they were designed for.

 

Another thing is that the 2JZ comes from an era when computer analysis techniques were in their infancy compared to what we have now, so factors of safety tended to be higher which also elped to result in an over engineered engine. Nowadays we have the ability to shave the last few fractions of a mm off everthing in the name of weight and cost - and we do. Hence no more 100% plus power hikes on modern engines unless, someone originally intended the design to do that at some point in the future.

[TBDevelopments]

GTX30 series are way too small for our engines according to the turbo maps. It'll spin up like mad but choke up at higher boost and revs badly. Also, lots of people are reporting the GTX30 to be a very poor upgrade from a GT30 on Mitsi evo's and BMWs etc as the limiting factor is the exhaust side on that turbo. I found many reports of that across various car clubs while doing my research, and not one saying it was any better.

 

i agree i think the GT30 basis is to small for the supra, GT35 minimum. But the GTX3076r is an awesome little turbocharger. I use them alot on the 3sgte builds and they always make very good power and spool for a road going application upto 500bhp on a 2.0ltr frame

 

Tim

[Jellybean]

I am sure Chris Wilson is in there somewhere LOL

 

A very young and not so fat Ross Brawn, I taught he would be far too young back then!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjvgmfPoJ5M

[Jellybean]

Anybody hear anything about the Boost Logic SupraTT Compound Turbo Kit? Nothing on Supra Forums either; sounds ideal

 

http://www.titanmotorsports.com/bolosucotuki.html

[Chris Wilson]

i agree i think the GT30 basis is to small for the supra, GT35 minimum. But the GTX3076r is an awesome little turbocharger. I use them alot on the 3sgte builds and they always make very good power and spool for a road going application upto 500bhp on a 2.0ltr frame

 

Tim

 

 

3076 is on an engine of mine too. Little 1600 cc Formula Atlantic 4A-GE I turbocharged.

[Kirk]

How big is the internal gate on that thing? It could the phone I'm viewing it off but it looks maybe half the diameter of the down pipe.

[CanisLupus]

A small teaser...

http://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/q71/1233437_10151813461244634_72102852_n.jpg

 

They will be using the stock Sequential System and remain pretty much Stealth. Currently in development

[Chris Wilson]

The flange has a continuation of the exducer to smooth flow when the `gate is closed, it is a trick used on Group A turbo engines and some rally engines. It just helps flow. The actual `gate flap is normal size.