New Developments in Supra Turbo applications?

[Jellybean]

Was talking to Marty during the Anniversary meet and was asking him about turbo choices, best compromise over BPU, high/low turbo power band setups.

 

He said he drove the new Straight 6 Bmw 1 Series 135i and said the setup was fantastic, i know Chris Harris raves about the car. I was telling him I want a responsive setup I can use in the real world, I am not looking for BHP figs, I couldn't car less but I want the car to perform well on the public road, it is driven there 99% of the time.

 

BPU is the ideal setup we can get right now, you do loose low down grunt when you go single compared to BPU, but Marty suggested the ideal setup would be to transition the latest technology used in the BMW I series for example to the Supra and retain the sequential setup.

 

I know Stu Hagen in the states has the 28r sequential hybrid setup but this is old school technology; my question is , with F1 and the big league players going forced induction between now and 2016; forced induction technology R&D will drastically get better and better.

 

Does anybody see this technology getting transitioned to the Supra, a twin turbo setup with small CEA billet turbo's; the ultimate street kit!

[tony tt]

Sounds interesting but at what cost! Probably cheaper going single.

[Gaz6002]

Well the M135i really is a fantastic bit of kit, but I think such tech would involve a fair bit of R&D to transfer over to the Supra. The basic 2JZ engine is far less advanced than the BMW unit, and things like direct injection would be required to have it perform in a similar manner.

[j_jza80]

A small, modern single is a better setup than BPU IMO. You can have a 500hp car that is more responsive than BPU.

[Jellybean]

Sounds interesting but at what cost! Probably cheaper going single.

 

I dont know, maybe you could use the OEM manifiold? Just a taught , if the units are of similar size but billets so can run higher boost

[Jellybean]

A small, modern single is a better setup than BPU IMO. You can have a 500hp car that is more responsive than BPU.

 

I am sure you could get a more responsive small single but I presume it will run out of poof up the top before BPU with Sequentials; This was the conundrum I find with single, you either have low end responsiveness and lack top end , have top end and lack low down responsiveness; compromise and BPU is more responsive

[Jellybean]

Well the M135i really is a fantastic bit of kit, but I think such tech would involve a fair bit of R&D to transfer over to the Supra. The basic 2JZ engine is far less advanced than the BMW unit, and things like direct injection would be required to have it perform in a similar manner.

 

The car is old technology at this stage and we came to the conclusion cost of R&D versus return would not make it feasible for a company to implement;

hopefully we are wrong!

[j_jza80]

I am sure you could get a more responsive small single but I presume it will run out of poof up the top before BPU with Sequentials; This was the conundrum I find with single, you either have low end responsiveness and lack top end , have top end and lack low down responsiveness; compromise and BPU is more responsive

 

Not at all. My GT35R single was faster across the board. A newer, Garrett GTX30R would still give you 500hp, be noticeably faster spooling, and provide decent top end. In all honesty though, top end power on road cars (certainly in the UK) should be a secondary concern to a decent, low down torque curve IMO.

[tony tt]

I dont know, maybe you could use the OEM manifiold? Just a taught , if the units are of similar size but billets so can run higher boost

 

Hmm that would be nice.

[listy]

You can get hybrid turbos and with supporting mods hit 500+bhp, keeping the sequential system. Drift_Bears is an example.

You can also get built turbos from SupraStore (but there is a history of dramas from there) which they claim can be pushed to almost 600bhp with supporting mods.

 

Why not just go hybrid/built turbos, and the supporting mods for 500+?

[dandan]

You need a ride in a car like mine with a well matched setup on a modified cast manifold and a good turbo (not a teeny one either!) I'm pretty certain that even staying under 4000rpm it'll still beat any BPU car doing the same from any speed to any speed.

 

I'm making 600bhp+ but still managing 400lbf.ft of torque at 4000rpm on the rollers at SRR and hitting a max of 590lbf.ft by 4700rpm with boost very low in the rev range and awesome acceleration from 3000rpm. You need a pretty powerful single turbo (on a normal tubular manifold) to match those torque numbers

[Wez]

A small, modern single is a better setup than BPU IMO. You can have a 500hp car that is more responsive than BPU.

 

 

If you keep power to a sensible level modern smaller turbos should spool very very well on a 3ltr lump

[David P]

Fit a single that gives the numbers you're after and fill in the bottom end with a Toyota 1G-GZE Roots supercharger with electronic clutch pulley that disengages when turbo's up to boost.

 

Or use a small turbo that'd boost sooner anyway and run both, like sequential turbo yet with an M90 sized supercharger for the first boost.

 

The charger could even be plumbed to suck through the turbo and pull boost up even sooner, or added to a stock set up for triple whammy.

 

The technology is known and easy to adapt components are available second hand, there's been plenty of talk about it yet I think folks are waiting for me to do it first.

 

It's long past time to be done.

 

Edited September 17, 2013 by David P (see edit history)

[mellonman]

You can get hybrid turbos and with supporting mods hit 500+bhp, keeping the sequential system. Drift_Bears is an example.

You can also get built turbos from SupraStore (but there is a history of dramas from there) which they claim can be pushed to almost 600bhp with supporting mods.

 

Why not just go hybrid/built turbos, and the supporting mods for 500+?

 

just been talking to him about this his is TTC with hybrids so i would not say sequential, hybrids in TTC i would expect you would get full boost at about 4000rpm

 

even the hybrid rebuilds are still very old tech now

360 thrust bearings not dbb

steel internals not billet

 

a decent small single could out perform hybrids

[Scott]

I still question 500hp on hybrids. Only one I have seen confirmed was the one Dude done and the EGTs were way above safe.

 

There are 500hp BPU Supras kicking around, all depends where you get the car tested. This is the reason number chasing is pointless. 100s of them in the US.

 

I think you would struggle to fault the GTX35r for what you are after. Going with a cast manifold and setting everything up to suit would give you an epic drive all round.

[thetrashcanman]

Fit a single that gives the numbers you're after and fill in the bottom end with a Toyota 1G-GZE Roots supercharger with electronic clutch pulley that disengages when turbo's up to boost.

 

Or use a small turbo that'd boost sooner anyway and run both, like sequential turbo yet with an M90 sized supercharger for the first boost.

 

The charger could even be plumbed to suck through the turbo and pull boost up even sooner, or added to a stock set up for triple whammy.

 

The technology is known and easy to adapt components are available second hand, there's been plenty of talk about it yet I think folks are waiting for me to do it first.

 

It's long past time to be done.

 

http://www.mkivsupra.net/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=145630&d=1328317447

 

I think you should then you can help me dude lol

[Jellybean]

Not at all. My GT35R single was faster across the board. A newer, Garrett GTX30R would still give you 500hp, be noticeably faster spooling, and provide decent top end. In all honesty though, top end power on road cars (certainly in the UK) should be a secondary concern to a decent, low down torque curve IMO.

 

For me, in Ireland (even worse than the UK roads) definitely I am after response over top end power or XXX mph; Torque is more important than BHP IMO; the GTX35R was on my radar but also the equivalent Precision turbo setup. With these , mixing and matching setups/Manufacturers it can be hit & miss , never mind $$$; a tried and tested route is always a good way to go.

 

Marty is currently testing/running a T04z hotside matted to a GT45r on a tubular SS manifold for the last 2 years

 

But the latest M135i setup transitioned to our cars would make them even more drive-able as an everyday car in traffic, on the motorway but still be something serious to contend with. Then again it maybe cheaper in the long run just to get a M135i or a GTR lol

 

Interesting how it will fair out, some serious amount of $$$ is going into R&D; hopefully we should see it trickle down to the aftermarket tuning in the near future. I just hope they don't start using just electronically controlled wastegates, nightmare with any turbo or wastegate issues and $$$$ to fix.

 

This will take our models out of scope for the latest technology

[Chris Wilson]

Hasn't the BMW got VVT on inlet and exhaust cams? It also has a very sophisticated direct injection set up with OE mapping and control. Hard to match the sort of R&D BMW have got Wez's engine is a great set up. Choose what you think is a bit small, turbo wise, and go one size smaller and you should be right! Nothing worse than lag in a road car, that's why people who haven't driven a modern 3 litre turbo diesel are very surprised by how well they pick their feet up. Still think an 8 litre ali big block on modern management would be interesting, if thirsty.

[j_jza80]

That's why I'm an advocate of small singles. A VVTi lump with an efficient, small, modern turbo and decent management can give you an extremely fast road car that is reliable and offers decent cruising economy.

[Chris Wilson]

Good management and mapping is a MUST if you want oodles of area under the torque curve, or det will be the result, with many tears and mucho wasted expense and hassle. For every good home brew turbo upgrade I get to drive I see about 20 disasters in the making Not just Supras, other stuff, too. Usually totally inadequate engine control, lousy or none existent mapping, inadequate manifolds that are always cracking, warping or falling apart, inadequate heat management, and expecting an engine that's already tired out to welcome a load more boost Plus odd ball turbos off Ebay mated to odd ball waste (of space) gates.

[Sheefa]

Well the M135i really is a fantastic bit of kit, but I think such tech would involve a fair bit of R&D to transfer over to the Supra. The basic 2JZ engine is far less advanced than the BMW unit, and things like direct injection would be required to have it perform in a similar manner.

 

I wish I had bought the M135i in hindsight instead of the Supra! Alas I'm emigrating but the reviews of that car are outright amazing. The potential for the car too with the N55 setup. Amazing. You enjoying it Gaz, any flaws?

[Jellybean]

Hasn't the BMW got VVT on inlet and exhaust cams? It also has a very sophisticated direct injection set up with OE mapping and control. Hard to match the sort of R&D BMW have got Wez's engine is a great set up. Choose what you think is a bit small, turbo wise, and go one size smaller and you should be right! Nothing worse than lag in a road car, that's why people who haven't driven a modern 3 litre turbo diesel are very surprised by how well they pick their feet up. Still think an 8 litre ali big block on modern management would be interesting, if thirsty.

 

I had a go in the new Audi A6 3 litre twin turbo diesel ; seriously fast, I think it has 550 ft/lb of torque

[Gaz6002]

I wish I had bought the M135i in hindsight instead of the Supra! Alas I'm emigrating but the reviews of that car are outright amazing. The potential for the car too with the N55 setup. Amazing. You enjoying it Gaz, any flaws?

 

We had it on the usual week-long test in the office. It has to be on my list of top 5 driver's cars I've driven this year though. Amazing fun, yes usable every day.

[Chris Wilson]

Boys talk BHP, men talk torque

[Scott]

I had a go in the new Audi A6 3 litre twin turbo diesel ; seriously fast, I think it has 550 ft/lb of torque

 

If it was stock then it's around 480.

 

Edit: Had a wee gander at the possibilities with the new A6 and apparently 400bhp with 625lbs of torque is possible

Edited September 17, 2013 by Scott (see edit history)