N/a mods

[Guest Hosky]

What mods can be done to the n/a without spendin serious money?

 

Exhaust, air filter, spark plugs?

What map options can you hve and what sort of power do you see from them?

And cams?

 

What power are they standard? Thanks

[supra joe]

Your better off keeping the stock air box but putting in a K@N panel filter, double decat and that's it tbh unless you change the manifold, it will be very loud though.

[skippyboyo1]

Double decat won't be loud providing you have a back box silencer and a middle box.

 

Search forum as this has been asked many times

[dr_jekyll]

tune the chassis, brakes, suspension , shed weight.

[Nic]

What mods can be done to the n/a without spendin serious money?

 

Exhaust, air filter, spark plugs?

What map options can you hve and what sort of power do you see from them?

And cams?

 

What power are they standard? Thanks

 

The only 'performance' modifications worth doing are fitting a freer flowing exhaust - one specifically designed for the NA - and removing the cats, this will gain a few hp and make the car feel a bit more responsive and a lot louder.

 

Keep the stock airfilter assembly, it's not restrictive and includes 2 cold air feeds from outside the engine bay, far better than any off the shelf induction kit.

 

I would spend the money on getting the car in good working order, give it a thorough service ie. all fluids, filters, plugs, plug leads, distributor cap, rotor arm, oxygen sensors, etc. Then look at optimising the handling and braking.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Nic (see edit history)

[Fly]

And there was me expecting the usual banter of .......a for sale sign!?

[ubersonic]

If you plan on replacing the panel filter with aftermarket Blitz and HKS both make some which are better than K&N.

[Dnk]

If you plan on replacing the panel filter with aftermarket Blitz and HKS both make some which are better than K&N.

 

Have you tested these or have links to any tests ?

 

I always thought K & N were one of the best with Blitz & HKS being some

of the worst

[ubersonic]

Have you tested these or have links to any tests ?

 

I always thought K & N were one of the best with Blitz & HKS being some

of the worst

 

K&N filters are known to filter small particles poorly, this is because they are basically an obsolete design masquerading as something awesome, most cars used to have that type of filter until they moved to superior paper ones that could simply be replaced come servicing thus lowering maintenance. I run a department at a company that specializes in (among other things) dust/fume extraction and filtration so I know/understand filters, foam ones like HKS and paper ones will work better than cotton gauze (K&N). For reference one of the worst type of filter you can use for dust/dirt is a metal one such as the stainless steel "bling" filters on ebay, steel filters are normally used in kitchen canopy's where grease will destroy a regular filter, their dust/dirt filtering is relatively poor.

 

One of the reasons many people on the internet seem to think K&N are the bomb (for ref they flow about as well as other performance filters, its just filtration where they are not as good) is due to this: http://www.mikekemper.com/elantra/filters/ which is a copy of a copy of a magazine article from the late 90's and seems to have become almost internet legend. It is however, like many internet legends, complete rubbish, firstly the power test was done using a modified MK3 Supra with 1JZ and dynoing it with each of the five filters (the was a SARD one too that's not shown on that page), the power differtence between the filters was 1hp, you can get that by dynoing the exact same car 5 times. Secondly the "filtration test" consisted of duct taping the filters to a hoover and throwing a cup of dirt at them, not surprisingly the ones that bring air in from the front (Blitz/HKS) did poorly and the ones that bring air in from the side (K&N/Apexi) did well.

[berg]

From my own personal experience double decats on mine when it was na only made a slight difference to top end...and a massive difference to the noise the hks induction i had didnt make any noticeable difference to performance

[mellonman]

N/A does not just stand for Normally Aspirated !! it also stands for None Applicable

[Dnk]

I shan't argue the power figures as we all know how hit or miss they can be but i'm not so sure

about the filtration test even with it being as simple as it was.

 

I don't see where it says the dirt/dust was thrown at the front of the filters, i guess it

could of been but even so the Blitz, Apexi & K&N are very similar in design so only the HKS

mushroom type would potentially lose out if that was the case.

 

I ran my car with the Apexi dual cone type for quite a few thousand miles/years and the engine

was running very nicely and still on the original turbos at 140,000 miles.

 

I think an up to date test as far as filtration goes could be a good idea but as far as an NA is

concerned i'd stick with the O/E airbox and genuine O/E filter.

Even on TT's as we know getting colder air from outside the engine bay is the way to go and very

little if any gain is to be had using induction kits

[supra joe]

Have you tested these or have links to any tests ?

 

I always thought K & N were one of the best with Blitz & HKS being some

of the worst

[Tsia]

n/a does not just stand for normally aspirated !! It also stands for none applicable

 

t/t

[Guest Roger NE]

Good to have a Filtration Professional post to confirm what I've always believed about most aftermarket filters !

 

And certainly the stock filter getting cold air from the front of the car, instead of a smaller Cone Filter under the bonnet with warm dirty air is BOUND to give better performance. I did read years ago about some guys in the USA who had confirmed this with proper Dyno Tests.

 

I have a couple of questions relating to fitting a 2JZ-GE in my Mk3 Supra, so hope you don't mind me hi-jacking the thread to get some opinions . . .

 

Firstly, I think the stock Mk3 Filter is BIGGER than the Mk4 one, so presumably I might as well stick with that?

 

But also, although the N/A plastic intake piping looks very similar on the Mk3, it has an additional special Chamber that Toyota said increased performance by creating a kind of vortex in the air going into the Throttle Body.

 

I don't know why they left it off the Mk4 (cost?) . . . but I would have thought it worth my leaving it in?

Edited September 4, 2013 by Roger NE (see edit history)

[Ian C]

K&N filters are known to filter small particles poorly, this is because they are basically an obsolete design masquerading as something awesome, most cars used to have that type of filter until they moved to superior paper ones that could simply be replaced come servicing thus lowering maintenance. I run a department at a company that specializes in (among other things) dust/fume extraction and filtration so I know/understand filters, foam ones like HKS and paper ones will work better than cotton gauze (K&N). For reference one of the worst type of filter you can use for dust/dirt is a metal one such as the stainless steel "bling" filters on ebay, steel filters are normally used in kitchen canopy's where grease will destroy a regular filter, their dust/dirt filtering is relatively poor.

 

One of the reasons many people on the internet seem to think K&N are the bomb (for ref they flow about as well as other performance filters, its just filtration where they are not as good) is due to this: http://www.mikekemper.com/elantra/filters/ which is a copy of a copy of a magazine article from the late 90's and seems to have become almost internet legend. It is however, like many internet legends, complete rubbish, firstly the power test was done using a modified MK3 Supra with 1JZ and dynoing it with each of the five filters (the was a SARD one too that's not shown on that page), the power differtence between the filters was 1hp, you can get that by dynoing the exact same car 5 times. Secondly the "filtration test" consisted of duct taping the filters to a hoover and throwing a cup of dirt at them, not surprisingly the ones that bring air in from the front (Blitz/HKS) did poorly and the ones that bring air in from the side (K&N/Apexi) did well.

 

This goes against over a decade's worth of experience on this forum. I personally have run a K&N filter for ten years, the same filter, serviced and re-oiled occasionally. I have no erosion on turbo vanes (checked this year) and no grit or particles in the intake tract or the PCV oil spots that collects in parts of the intake system (e.g. lower runners). I've never heard of any issues on here or other forums with K&N filters, and I've also never heard of that article you've linked to. When cleaning out the K&N, the amount of muck it's stopped turns a sinkful of water black, so it's obviously stopping even the smallest of particles.

 

I used an Apexi before and it was almost as good but some particles got through. Prior to that my MKIII Supra had a HKS mushroom filter as I knew no better. May as well have used chicken wire.

 

I expect no power gains from filters at all, and anyone who does needs to readjust their tuning expectations to avoid future disappointment. I just needed a good filter as the intake side was single turbo'd up and needed an air intake solution way beyond the stock setup.

 

Chris Wilson, a man on here with more experience in such things than most of us added together, has seen a lot of damage caused by HKS foam filters, on Skylines and Supras. Eroded turbo vanes and scored bores/damaged rings due to ingestion of grit particles.

 

Personally, I'm going to take mine and Chris's years of experience with these very products for my evidence, and continue to warn people off HKS filter that are proven to trash engines and turbos. They are probably excellent for an extractor fan, not so much for a precision engine

 

You can't use an ancient article that no-one's ever referenced before and say the conclusions are crap because it was old and biased, and then use it as evidence that HKS filters are better. If the article was junk science then all of its conclusions are null and void. If you're using the article to support your own conclusions then you can't say it's junk

Edited September 4, 2013 by Ian C (see edit history)

[Guest Roger NE]

Why change from the stock paper filter at all? They have a excellent filtration properties, a HUGE surface area, and get cold air from outside.

 

The problem is that most of you guys that fit Aftermarket Filters try and convince yourself they have improved the engine performance . . . when probably the reverse is true . . . . All they do is make a silly noise !

[Ian C]

Why change from the stock paper filter at all? They have a excellent filtration properties, a HUGE surface area, and get cold air from outside.

 

The problem is that most of you guys that fit Aftermarket Filters try and convince yourself they have improved the engine performance . . . when probably the reverse is true . . . . All they do is make a silly noise !

 

"I expect no power gains from filters at all, and anyone who does needs to readjust their tuning expectations to avoid future disappointment. I just needed a good filter as the intake side was single turbo'd up and needed an air intake solution way beyond the stock setup."

 

[Nic]

But also, although the N/A plastic intake piping looks very similar on the Mk3, it has an additional special Chamber that Toyota said increased performance by creating a kind of vortex in the air going into the Throttle Body.

 

I don't know why they left it off the Mk4 (cost?) . . . but I would have thought it worth my leaving it in?

 

The MKIV GE intake includes a resonator box, the GTE doesn't. As you say, it's there to aid the flow of air into the engine for better performance, plus it also reduces intake noise levels.

[Guest Roger NE]

I wasn't referring to YOU Ian . . . just all the boy racers who own all kinds of different cars that think fitting a new intake filter under the bonnet will improve performance!

 

Regarding the intake on the 2JZ-GE - is there really a Vortex-producing section on the plastic intake tubing? (if so, it must be hidden inside the tubing, wheres as on the Mk3 it's an obvious fatter plastic unit)

 

By the way, I'm not talking about the special dual switched chamber alloy Intake Plenum that they have on the N/A engines - this was originally developed for the Mk3 Supra, but I gather is also used on the Mk4 N/As as well.

[ubersonic]

I don't see where it says the dirt/dust was thrown at the front of the filters, i guess it could of been but even so the Blitz, Apexi & K&N are very similar in design so only the HKS mushroom type would potentially lose out if that was the case.

 

Really sorry I should have added that the Apexi intake has been redesigned since the 1990's and was originally a cylinder with a capped end hence why it was the most resistant to the cup of dirt. Even though the original site is long gone and only the chinese whispers remain I actually saved it about 7 years ago lol.

 

The Apexi used to look like this:

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/4871/tcac.jpg

 

This was the car they used for the chain dyno test:

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/7103/ibxl.jpg

 

And this was their filtration test:

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/386/wrku.jpg

[Nic]

Regarding the intake on the 2JZ-GE - is there really a Vortex-producing section on the plastic intake tubing? (if so, it must be hidden inside the tubing, wheres as on the Mk3 it's an obvious fatter plastic unit)

 

http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/1244/i93n.jpg

 

Edited September 4, 2013 by Nic (see edit history)

[Guest Roger NE]

Oh so that bottle-like thing attached underneath does that?

 

On the Mk 3 it's a chamber inline with the actual plastic piping - the bulbous bit you can see on the left in this photo

 

http://www.wessexprod.demon.co.uk/supra/7M-GE.jpg

[Slam]

Just throw your break away,that will make you go faster

[Guest Roger NE]

I see from the diagrams there's also a big chamber hanging underneath the J shaped plastic pipe just before it goes into the Throttle Body . . . . is that another Resonator or something too?