Pig Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 (edited) I went out to get the car cleaned today and thought I would give it a little 'run' on the way home. I popped the bonnet to check the turbo oil feed after the latest disaster and noticed the exhaust housing was glowing hot so I removed the turbo blanket and took pics as I like to do. My EGT gauge (SPA Design) is mounted in the down pipe about 4 inches behind the turbo - The max appears to be 1007 degrees as I hit this quite a lot on the dragonball. Here is the story behind current state of play. Last time I mapped with Ryan, we couldn't get enough fuel in to run the car over 1.4 bar despite having a bosch fuel pump and 880 cc injectors. Ryan advised it was because the pump couldn't pull enough power through the small cables so I changed them for some 10 gauge cables to solve this issue. I started upping the boost to see what would happen without adding more fuel and as expected, it ran lean. With the dragonball coming up I thought I should do the right thing and put the boost back down and look to increase the boost when I get back. However.... I had begun to notice that the EGT's were running really high (800 cruising and 1000 on multiple boost runs) so plugged the laptop in to do some data logging and sure enough the car was running lean on boost (even at 1.0 bar). Why? I added more fuel and brought the AFR's to pretty much bang on 11 throughout a boost pull. I did this all the way up to 1.77 bar and then brought the boost back down to 1.5. I did not touch any ignition timing although I plan to learn about this as I believe I need to advance the ignition to bring the EGT's down. There is another factor which maybe worth noting, I have noticed that the injectors (1 or more) appear to be sticking both open and closed. The symptoms of this are a miss fire and the car feeling like its holding back with the AFR gauge either reading full lean on fully rich. To free it up I place the car in neutral, rev the engine and it will then go back to normal. Injectors are coming out and off for professional cleaning. P.S - There are 2 reasons why I haven't taken the car to Ryan for him to map with higher boost 1. I can't get any more time off work for the rest of the year. 2. I want to learn how to do it myself and once I feel I have got it where its performing well go and see Ryan for his opinion. Edited June 2, 2013 by Pig (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mellonman Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 (edited) Mate that egt sensor is so far away, I think you should have to add a couple more 100 dec temp on that, I have seen turbos get like that but only on a wot pull on a dyno !!! Not after you have pulled up and taken it apart to have a look. Maybe get it mapped again to be safe I sticking injector could be leaning out just one cylinder which would show in the afr as runing lean but you could be mega lean just on one Edited June 2, 2013 by mellonman (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieP Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 Ive never seen a turbo get that hot, only manifolds and DP's. Surely the better way to learn is to map with Ryan and get a few pointers so you know where you are going wrong, rather than risk melting your engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 You're seeing 1000C with the sensor after the turbo? Something is definitely not right with that, temps after the turbo are quite a bit cooler than before (very roughly 200C less), if it really is getting that hot the engine would be scrap by now. It may be the sensor or gauge is not working correctly, but with the injector issues you mention I wouldn't run the car until you get Ryan to have a look at what is what. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mellonman Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 I think the picture shows that the sensor is working, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pig Posted June 2, 2013 Author Share Posted June 2, 2013 Mate that egt sensor is so far away, I think you should have to add a couple more 100 dec temp on that, I have seen turbos get like that but only on a wot pull on a dyno !!! Not after you have pulled up and taken it apart to have a look. Maybe get it mapped again to be safe I sticking injector could be leaning out just one cylinder which would show in the afr as runing lean but you could be mega lean just on one The location has always been around that point, I don't feel comfortable having it pre turbo as if it blows the tip the consequences are very expensive. Ref Injector - That is my thoughts too. If that was the case would that cause the rise in temps? If 1 injector was off the scale lean on boost, I assume it would just be detonating early and risking blowing up? Ive never seen a turbo get that hot, only manifolds and DP's. Surely the better way to learn is to map with Ryan and get a few pointers so you know where you are going wrong, rather than risk melting your engine. I have heard of one persons turbo getting that hot before and it knackered it. I have a sneaking suspicion that I maybe in a similar boat as it was feeling a little laggy (bearing in mind that I was running those temps on the dragonball - I'll pull the filter off an see if its still spinning freely one night this week. I can't get the time to see Ryan at the moment but will see if Ryan would mind doing that. I am running the boost back down roughly where it was when Ryan mapped it to 1.4 it used to peak up to 1.6/1.7 where Ryan had set a limit. Today I was only running a peak of 1.58 I think what has happened is that 1 injector is not putting enough fuel in which threw the AFR's out and I have thrown more fuel in through the other cylinders which has masked the issue. Any idea's where to buy a set of det cans? You're seeing 1000C with the sensor after the turbo? Something is definitely not right with that, temps after the turbo are quite a bit cooler than before (very roughly 200C less), if it really is getting that hot the engine would be scrap by now. It may be the sensor or gauge is not working correctly, but with the injector issues you mention I wouldn't run the car until you get Ryan to have a look at what is what. I think the picture shows that the sensor is working, Yup, shame the sensor does read higher as I dread to think how high it got on my top speed run on the track in france The car has always run very hot, even when it was twins back in the day - 950 was not uncommon on twins and single. I think today I went a lot higher, hence glow baby glow. The car now wont be run until the injectors have gone off for cleaning as there is no way it will last like that. If that doesn't fix it then off to Ryan for him to fix my handy work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mugello Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 Ive never seen a turbo get that hot, only manifolds and DP's. Surely the better way to learn is to map with Ryan and get a few pointers so you know where you are going wrong, rather than risk melting your engine. +1 That turbo is silly HOT ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slutters Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 Your damaging your engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parry_10 Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 What ecu have you got out of interest? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mellonman Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 You dont have to have ryan map it , there are lots of other places that could get you out of trouble until you can find the time, det cans you can make relatively easy but, I made a set but was picking to much wind noise , but I just done quck job to see if it could be done! At the end of the day all they are is a microphone, so yoi can hear the knock/ping. This does need a pro to look at it or a rebuild will be next You have a egt but you say you had to log to get the afr have you not got a afr gauge? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark newman Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 What exhaust size is your down pipe /mid pipe. what manifold are you running. is it free flowing enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
letmeshowyou Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 Make some Det cans Jon - they're not hard to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pig Posted June 2, 2013 Author Share Posted June 2, 2013 Your damaging your engine. No shit! Lucky that I spotted it tonight. What ecu have you got out of interest? AEM - Not sure which version. Prob version 1 as it was pruchased about 5-6 years ago. You dont have to have ryan map it , there are lots of other places that could get you out of trouble until you can find the time, det cans you can make relatively easy but, I made a set but was picking to much wind noise , but I just done quck job to see if it could be done! At the end of the day all they are is a microphone, so yoi can hear the knock/ping. This does need a pro to look at it or a rebuild will be next You have a egt but you say you had to log to get the afr have you not got a afr gauge? Mapping is not the first place to start - Injectors 1st as I know there is an issue (which I think is there) as I can easily just get the base map loaded up. The high temps begun before I raised the boost / started playing with the AEM. I like to use Ryan, I know and trust him - There are lots of people who profess to knowing the AEM and just use the wizard - May have to consider it though. I have an AFR gauge and EGT. Time to learn it myself, I am in no rush to have the car working. I don't plan on using it again this year anyway. Only took it out today to clean it. What exhaust size is your down pipe /mid pipe. what manifold are you running. is it free flowing enough. Good point Mark. I run a 3 inch all the way from the turbo back. Its a whifbitz 3 inch twinbox http://www.garagewhifbitz.co.uk/index.php/garage-whifbitz-15487.html I want the car to be quiet (wastegate plumbed in). I hate noisy cars! Any recommendation for injector cleaning companies? Is there a guide on here for removing injectors? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abz Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 I love your pictures Jon!! Have no idea on the turbo front and I am not Sherlock Holmes but as it has been mentioned before in the thread, I think you should know your turbo is hot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark newman Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 what manifold is it is a cast phr street range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pig Posted June 2, 2013 Author Share Posted June 2, 2013 Make some Det cans Jon - they're not hard to Just googled it, looks easy enough Got some old shooting headphones and some left over boost pipe so half way there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littler Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 what manifold is it is a cast phr street range. It's a whifbtiz twin wastegate iirc, we were chatting about his setup on dragon ball. Jon at least there are no flames this time! Hope you get it sorted and there isn't any damage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pig Posted June 2, 2013 Author Share Posted June 2, 2013 what manifold is it is a cast phr street range. Whifbitz twin wastegate with 66mm billet turbo Excuse the signature, its a couple of yrs out of date...off to edit. P.S - Thankfully I held onto my old BL T61 as I might need it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pig Posted June 2, 2013 Author Share Posted June 2, 2013 It's a whifbtiz twin wastegate iirc, we were chatting about his setup on dragon ball. Jon at least there are no flames this time! Hope you get it sorted and there isn't any damage Cheers mate - Its all part of it. If I wanted a car that was faultless then I would run it at 500bhp and never have a problem....There is no fun in that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GazB Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 One good point John, you dont need a torch at night to see whats happening in the engine bay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
absz Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 I remember a few years ago you melted the internals of your hks ssqv at suprapod:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pig Posted June 2, 2013 Author Share Posted June 2, 2013 I remember a few years ago you melted the internals of your hks ssqv at suprapod:D Yup, that was too much 2 step in 1 day. does anyone have a link to an injector removing tutorial? Before I start it I want to make sure I have the right tools. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littler Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 Maybe of use: http://www.internetwork.org.uk/Injectors/Injectors.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pig Posted June 2, 2013 Author Share Posted June 2, 2013 Maybe of use: http://www.internetwork.org.uk/Injectors/Injectors.htm Thanks mate. Looks like a few hours and a bit of a PITA.... Hmmm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mellonman Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 i done mine recently, just need the throttle body and inlet off , simple enough job its just nuts and bolts 2 hours tops even for a novice. i sent mine to chris wilson for a clean and test £100 cant fault him great guy and left them on over night for me . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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