NA-t Water/Meth Injection Thread

[Noz]

Anyone running high compression is recommended to use water/meth (WM) injection. I've read it and heard it so many places/times. But why?

 

No technical information is given about NA-t's and their exhaust gas temperatures, and if any of this research is actually needed.

 

I won't run through the advantages of WM injection there's enough and better detailed information elsewhere. But what isn't out there is how to apply the setup to your engine and data showing flow rates against drop in temperatures, do NA-t supra's really benefit from this.

 

But more importantly, no direct link to 2JZ NA-t setups or information showing improvements were made.

 

It's `typically` recommended not to go above 14psi on an NA-t. I'm nearly at 20psi an haven't broken anything but this pressure justifies me researching the need for cooler exhaust gases. My engine runs HOT so it's something I want to look at.

 

I want to compare a few things when doing this, and thus creating this thread to show changes and improvements. I want to compare:

 

- Exhaust temperatures before, after and at pump pressure changes

- Oil temperatures before, after (does WM injection really help with cylinder temperatures, will oil temp really be affected)

- Nozzle location (I am going for 1 nozzle per cylinder, will trying 1 large nozzle on the intake make a difference instead)

- Does pump pressure on the same nozzle design really make an impact on the flow, if so is there an optimum volume for a stock NA 10.1 for cooling

- Pump's typically have adjustable pressure. Does this pressure allow fine tuning for users, or is it simply a design feature to allow a wider range of engines to be suited.

 

Sadly I won't have an intake air temp sensor after the injection points so I can't compare intake charges. Exhaust gases will be the most likely direction for measurements.

 

I'm not going to link my injection setup with the ECU. I will use a seperate controller which uses a boost solenoid to measure pressure, and turns the pressure into a signal. This signal is used by the controller, turning on the flow of meth progressively up to the full flow point which is also set. So two set points, and not a simple on/off system.

 

I'm looking at the DVC stage 2 devilsown kit. The only concern is nozzle selection incorrect for my setup, no tank (David P is helping me with this) and the pumps noisey and I read a review saying it may leak, so the easier option may be to buy the controller and make my own kit. This is to be decided.

 

http://www.alcohol-injection.com/en/universal/305-dvc-30-stage-2a.html

 

I'm waiting to receive the EGT setup so I can begin to log readings to compare against. I'm also waiting for a water flow sensor to arrive. Concern with any meth setup is failure of nozzles or flow. With a failing nozzle one cylinder may get over hot and that's bad news. To work against this I'm lookin at installing a water flow sensor per cylinder nozzle. Giving me a positive signal when there is flow. I'm hoping to make a small logic circuit so I can have a master LED on my dash telling me when all 6 nozzles will be firing.

 

Here is the item in question:

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Water-Flow-Switch-Magnetic-Stainless-Steel-Water-Sensor-/271198856285?_trksid=p5197.m1992&_trkparms=aid%3D111000%26algo%3DREC.CURRENT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D14%26meid%3D7347439063767952061%26pid%3D100015%26prg%3D1006%26rk%3D1%26sd%3D271198856285%26#ht_5491wt_936

 

Having a flow gauge giving me readings and allowing me to measure flow would be better, but with 6 nozzles the tolerances would have to be extremely tight as 1 nozzle down would only create 16% drop in pressure. Those failsafe devices are usually aimed at the typical single/twin nozzle setup.

 

I'm looking at using 6x 0.2mm (do2) nozzles.

 

Pump size recommended for engine capacity is

 

All these thing's may not be correct. This is just where I have got to. Any corrections would be great. I'm new to this and I'm no tuning god either. Hoping other's can learn from this setup and hopefully know if it's really worth it for them as well.

Edited May 1, 2013 by Noz (see edit history)

[Tricky-Ricky]

Bloody hell! so you have been running 20 PSI on a high compression motor with no EGT gauge or any form of knock detection/control other than the std ECU?????

All i can say is your one lucky SOB!

 

I was running only 15PSI on the GTE motor with WI and full compliment of EGT and knock detection etc,

what turbo are usingeing outinteresteset? hope you also have a big FMIC.

[Noz]

Bloody hell! so you have been running 20 PSI on a high compression motor with no EGT gauge or any form of knock detection/control other than the std ECU?????

All i can say is your one lucky SOB!

 

I was running only 15PSI on the GTE motor with WI and full compliment of EGT and knock detection etc,

what turbo are usingeing outinteresteset? hope you also have a big FMIC.

 

Indeed mate. It was logged on the dyno at 18psi and began blowing the spark out. I've lowered the gap, spark resolved, and now it blows pipes off so would assume slightly more. Boost gauge stopped working so ordered another.

 

These are the reasons I want to ensure I've no problems, and probably explains the hot engine.

 

I'm running a T61 XS turbo.

 

On the dyno I had no signs of knock during all mapping stages. So this is more of a prevention than a knock solution. Though I'm very sure I will run into problems if I sit at WOT in higher load gears for any length of time.

[Chris Wilson]

Join the ERL Aqua Mist forum, the company owner may help you. To be honest you are probably better with a basic single injector system, once you go direct port injection things get complicated. The WRC teams were spending BIG money on injectors that didn't clog or fail with the heat, and running very high PSI specialist Bosch water pumps. You are over complicating things!! Don't listen to David, he's bats, he'll be having you put a supercharger on it next, with some magic hydrogen generator "thing"

 

Not sure if it's available on line, but Ricardo did some SAE papers going into depth on WI. This post of mine from way back my have some info of use or interest:

 

Water injection serves 2 closely related functions on a turbo engined

car. Firstly it cools the charge air temperature by utilising an effect

known as the latent heat of evaporation. This property can be self

demonstrated very easily. If you pour something that evaporates quickly

like petrol on your hand it feels very cold. This is the rapidly

vaporising spirit removing heat from your skin and bloodstream by the

aforementioned process. By spraying a very finely atomised mist of water

into the inlet of a turbo engine when under boost conditions the

evaporation of the water into steam causes a temperature reduction in the air and

fuel intake charge. A cold charge is less likely to be subject to

detonation than a hot charge. A cool charge is also denser, able to

carry more air and fuel mix per unit of volume. These 2 properties of

water injection allow either less chance of detonation at a given boost,

maybe allowing lower octane fuel to be used, or to allow a rise in boost

pressure usage without detonation. These are very desirable goals for

any modifier of a turbo engine, or one using an engine mapped to run

on a higher octane fuel than generally available in the UK. Japanese

import turbo cars for example.

 

People ask whether squirting water into an engine causes corrosion. In

fact this is not a problem, the combustion temperatures under boost

ensure the water is turned instantly to steam and is ejected out of the

exhaust. The water mist is injected only when high boost is sensed via

a supplied pressure sensor switch. The basic combustion process of

hydrocarbon fuels causes LOTS of water to be generated anyway, which is why cars

not driven on regular long journeys will rust out a mild steel exhaust

system from the INSIDE out. If water is added in the correct volume, via

the supplied, calibrated jets, this is not a problem.

 

Even when used alongside a larger or more efficient intercooler, or

indeed when an intercooler is used in an application where one was not

present as standard, water injection can and does increase charge cooling

still further. Water can be stored either in the existing windscreen

washer bottle or in a separate, dedicated, container. In cold conditions

it is essential to add an anti freeze additive to the water to stop pump

damage through freezing. Windscreen washer additive serves this purpose

fine and the engine won't mind ingesting this solution at all. Or you

can add neat methanol, which is usually the anti freeze additive in

washer fluid anyway. Using a 50 / 50 percent by volume water / methanol

mix will actually help increase the octane of the intake charge, as an

added benefit. As a yet further advantage the latent heat of evaporation

of methanol is extremely high. A win / win situation. It is not however

obligatory to use methanol as an additive. All components of the water

injection kit that are in contact with the fluid are stainless steel or

able to tolerate water and methanol or screen washer additive without

degradation. A properly set up system does not use a vast amount of

water, in fact a modern car sized screen washer bottle used also for the

water injection reservoir will suffice admirably. A water filter is

included to keep any sludge out of the pump or jet. This should be

checked regularly for contamination and blown out if residue is

apparent within.

 

A more technical explanation:

 

Let us take a quick look at ignition. Those who have a Heywood can look it up

- mines on loan so going by memory. The first thing that happens is a plasma

cloud is formed by the arc consisting of super heated electron stripped atoms.

When this cloud "explodes" a ball of high energy particles is shot outward.

 

The highest energy particles are the hydrogen atoms - and they penetrate the

charge about 5 times as far as the rest of the particles. As they lose energy

and return to normal temps - about 5000 k - they begin to react chemically

with any surrounding fuel and oxygen particles. The effectiveness of spark

ignition is directly related to the availability of free hydrogen. Molecules

containing tightly bound hydrogen such as methanol, nitromethane, and methane

are far more difficult to ignite than those with less bonds.

 

During combustion - water - H2O ( present and formed ) is extremely active in

the oxidation of the hydrocarbon. The predominate reaction is the following:

 

OH + H ==> H2O

H2O + O ==> H2O2

H2O2 ==> OH + OH

Loop to top and repeat.

 

The OH radical is the most effective at stripping hydrogen from the HC

molecule in most ranges of combustion temperature.

 

Another predominate process is the HOO radical. It is more active at lower

temperatures and is competitive with the H2O2 at higher temps.

 

OO + H ==> HOO

HOO + H ==> H2O2

H2O2 ==> OH + OH

 

This mechanism is very active at both stripping hydrogen from the HC and for

getting O2 into usable combustion reactions.

 

Next consider the combustion of CO. Virtually no C ==> CO2. Its a two step

process. C+O ==> CO. CO virtually drops out of early mid combustion as the O

H reactions are significantly faster and effectively compete for the available

oxygen.

 

Then consider that pure CO and pure O2 burns very slowly if at all. Virtually

the only mechanism to complete the oxidization ( Glassman - Combustion Third

Edition ) of CO ==> CO2 is the "water method".

 

CO + OH ==> CO2 + H

H + OH ==> H20

H2O + O ==> H2O2

H2O2 ==> OH + OH

goto to top and repeat.

 

This simple reaction accounts for 99% + of the conversion of CO to CO2. It is

important in that fully two thirds of the energy of carbon combustion is

released in the CO ==> CO2 process and that this process occurs slow and late

in the combustion of the fuel. Excess water can and does speed this

conversion - by actively entering into the conversion process thru the above

mechanism.

 

The peak flame temperature is determined by three factors alone - the energy

present and released, the total atomic mass, and the atomic ratio - commonly

called CHON for Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, and Nitrogen. The chemical

reactions in combustion leading to peak temperature are supremely indifferent

to pressure. The temperatures and rates of normal IC combustion are

sufficient to cause most of the fuel and water present to be dissociated and

enter into the flame.

 

As can be seen above, water is most definitily not only not inert but is a

very active and important player in the combustion of hydrocarbon fuel.

Ricardo and others have documented that under certain conditions ( normally

supercharged ) water can replace fuel up to about 50% and develop the same

power output, or that the power output can be increased by up to 50% addition

of water. This conditions were investigated by NACA and others for piston

aircraft engines. It is important to note that these improvements came at the

upper end of the power range where sufficient fuel and air was available to

have an excess of energy that could not be converted to usable pressure in a

timely manner.

 

As a side note - Volvo recently released some SAE papers documenting the use

of cooled EGR to both reduce detonation and return to a stoic mixture under

boost in the 15 psi range - while maintaining approximately the same power

output. Notice - they reduced fuel and still get the same power output.

 

When you consider that EGR consists primarily of nitrogen, CO2, and water ( to

the tune of about two gallons formed from each gallon of water burned ), you

might draw the conclusion that it also was not "inert". They peaked their

tests at about 18% cooled EGR - which would work out to about 36% water

injection and got about the same results under similar conditions that the

early NACA research got.

[Noz]

Thanks for the input Chris.

 

David did recommend going on the Aquamyst forum, he also commented that their ERL pumps are a lot better and a lot quieter.

 

It was me who wanted to look into the nozzle per cylinder setup. He recommended using a single nozzle.

 

Obviously the main problem was nozzle's failing in action. A flow gauge per nozzle would be perfect, though probably over kill. That or EGT per cylinder to detect issues; further expense.

[Tricky-Ricky]

Two jets, one just after the IC and one just before the throttle body will be fine, that will take care of in cylinder and charge cooling, you can use just one injector to run both, i did with no problems with the ERL pump.

If you find you are running high EGTs you can advance theexhauste cam a little that will help to lower the temps.

I suspect there is a awful lot of timing retard going on and lots of fuel to be able to run the T61 at 20psi as normally this turbo is easily capable of making 5-600BHP.

[Chris Wilson]

I wouldn't want to run anything other than a high end, high budget race engine so close to det that the failure of the WI would cause an issue, it's too bleeding edge. I am a great fan of WI and have it on most turbo engines of mine, but there's no way I could suggest having a road car engine so near det that WI was *needed* to keep it one piece. Keep it simple and on the safe side of det. Use WI to add a ]n extra margin, not to BE the margin. High CR turbo engines are not for the feint hearted, you need to have it mapped spot on and know the fuel is a constant quality, and even then it's fingers crossed time. You would be very wise to have active knock sensors at the very least, and an ecu that will pull timing, add fuel and log any straying into det or ping. Det is massively and quickly destructive, I have a small retirement home for pistons with holed crowns and crushed ring lands, and can recall a few owners horror when they are shown the damage (and the bill....). KEEP AWAY FROM DET AND SITUATIONS THAT BRING YOU NEAR IT!!!

[Noz]

The WI setup is purely to allow me to run what I already have. I've no problems at this point, and I stay away from the redline which is the danger point. Though I've hit it a few times I've had no problems.

 

The fueling is heavy up in the ends of the rev range. It's running, it hasn't popped yet and I'm introducing WI to keep things running smoothly.

 

This setup is to safe guard, not to tune on. I'll be running it 100% of the time. I don't have any det sensors, I'll look into it as well.

 

I'm not setting this up with timing adjustments nor am I settng it up with det sensors. I'll go standalone when I go down that road, and it's so momentarily in that boost range I need to understand the temp's before I go jumping into spending further money.

 

Ok, so assuming 12GPH I'll go with 2x 0.6mm nozzles. I do think I'm making it more complicated than it has to be, but I wanted to look at it as a comparison. And running it constantly, I can't ensure a nozzle won't crap itself.

 

Two nozzles it is!

 

I have my AIT sensor on the bend before the TB, I would assume this would pick up some of the temp drops if placing a nozzle just after the IC.

[Tricky-Ricky]

Its not the redline you need to worry about, its the peak torque/load areas of the map that will be the most critical, you obviously run a piggyback, which one and who mapped it? the std ECU will be running two knock sensors so the piggyback timing map is taking care of retarding the ignition, and hopefully the std knock map is doing its job if any det is encountered, however like CW said its a fine line.

 

A decent temp sensor/thermocouple placed pre IC and close to throttle body will give you an idea how well WI and IC are doing.

[JamieP]

I honestly dont see the point, if i could make 1132bhp at the hubs with a slightly raised compression 2jz on regular v-power then you will be fine.

 

I did have WI fitted for a short while back when i had 600bhp, all it did was make the car feel slower, put the money towards a good ecu.

[Samurai 20V]

Since we talking WI, I have a question regarding location of the tank and routing the piping.

 

I am planning to locate the tank in the trunk, is it safe to run the piping from the pump to the jet in the car or rather under the car?

[Tricky-Ricky]

Since we talking WI, I have a question regarding location of the tank and routing the piping.

 

I am planning to locate the tank in the trunk, is it safe to run the piping from the pump to the jet in the car or rather under the car?

 

I ran mine through the car rather than under, saves having to worry about it catching or freezing, but all the major parts where in the boot, except the injector/HSV, you would need to run any cable etc through the car anyway depending on your set up.

[Samurai 20V]

I ran mine through the car rather than under, saves having to worry about it catching or freezing, but all the major parts where in the boot, except the injector/HSV, you would need to run any cable etc through the car anyway depending on your set up.

 

Thanks mate..

 

Freezing not an issue here, but catching is a concern for sure..

 

Wiring will go in the car, controller will be dash mounted..

[Noz]

Its not the redline you need to worry about, its the peak torque/load areas of the map that will be the most critical, you obviously run a piggyback, which one and who mapped it? the std ECU will be running two knock sensors so the piggyback timing map is taking care of retarding the ignition, and hopefully the std knock map is doing its job if any det is encountered, however like CW said its a fine line.

 

A decent temp sensor/thermocouple placed pre IC and close to throttle body will give you an idea how well WI and IC are doing.

 

The intercooler is working really well. I've posted previously about my twin temp sensor setup and the drop in temps on a cheap intercooler suits my needs perfectly. I don't think with my flow and pressure I could get better performance from an intercooler.

 

Is it possible to run a visual out from the ECU air intake sensor? It would be great to have a third visual, to give the orignal intake to compare against the final intake entering the throttle body.

 

If I place two jets, as recommended, by the IC output and just before the TB I will only get the temp reading from one nozzle. Unless I move the temp sensor, how will see the benefit from both jets? Should I move the sensor when installing the second jet?

 

I honestly dont see the point, if i could make 1132bhp at the hubs with a slightly raised compression 2jz on regular v-power then you will be fine.

 

 

Half the point of this thread/trial is to look into if it's actually needed; I did explain this.

 

I've read that it's recommended above 14psi. Therefore I'm looking into temp's to see if its really a requiremet. If I find I'm running too much boost at high compression NA then its worth it.

 

Like I said previously, I don't know and want to proove if it is or isn't through analysis and not just follow forum jibber jabber like 99% of people (including myself) do/have done.

[Tricky-Ricky]

The intercooler is working really well. I've posted previously about my twin temp sensor setup and the drop in temps on a cheap intercooler suits my needs perfectly. I don't think with my flow and pressure I could get better performance from an intercooler.

 

Depends on the amount of drop in temp your getting, unless its taking the temps back to ambient, adding WI will always drop the temps a bit more

 

Is it possible to run a visual out from the ECU air intake sensor? It would be great to have a third visual, to give the orignal intake to compare against the final intake entering the throttle body.

 

Not really, the ECU IAT sensor is resistance based, and you would need to have a gauge specially calibrated to show the temps accurately, it also has a short range, as the ECU will only adjust fuel trim after a certain temp.

 

If I place two jets, as recommended, by the IC output and just before the TB I will only get the temp reading from one nozzle. Unless I move the temp sensor, how will see the benefit from both jets? Should I move the sensor when installing the second jet?

 

If you want to monitor IC efficiency its generally a case of monitoring temps before and after the IC, then if you add WI you can also check with it on and off to get an idea of its affects on charge temps.

 

 

Half the point of this thread/trial is to look into if it's actually needed; I did explain this.

 

Only trial and error will tell you this!

 

I've read that it's recommended above 14psi. Therefore I'm looking into temp's to see if its really a requiremet. If I find I'm running too much boost at high compression NA then its worth it.

 

Like I said previously, I don't know and want to proove if it is or isn't through analysis and not just follow forum jibber jabber like 99% of people (including myself) do/have done.

 

My advice would be log into the Aquamist forum and read all the "jibber jabber" from people who have been there and done it, also ask Richard Lamb for advice since he is the developer and brains behind the automotive side of WI you wont get any bad advice from him,

You basically have two options, ask for advice which you seem to be doing, but are classing it as forum jibber jabber, so the only sensible option is to buy a WI set up and satisfy yourself if its worth the effort.

Edited May 2, 2013 by Tricky-Ricky (see edit history)

[Noz]

I do currently have a sensor before and after the IC.

 

The jibber jabber I refer to is on clubna-t and this forum stating Wi is required for > 14psi. No idea why you think I'm considering these replies as nonsense. My reference to information that has no proof is the reference to 14psi upwards needing cooling, not the replies in this thread. Which I do appreciate, as this is a learning curve for me

 

I've been browinsg the aquamist products and items lately they do seem like nice items. It's slightly more expensive, but think that's the way forward also. I like the fact it's only just over a hundred pounds more than other manufactures but supplies a flow gauge.

[David P]

Don't listen to David, he's bats

 

David did recommend going on the Aquamyst forum, he also commented that their ERL pumps are a lot better and a lot quieter.

 

It was me who wanted to look into the nozzle per cylinder setup. He recommended using a single nozzle.

 

 

I keep the bats in my own attic.

[Noz]

Well he aquamist setup is looking tasty I'll admit. A twin nozzle setup at the IC exit would also allow me to measure temps. I'll start making a shopping list of parts I need and begin ordering at the end of the month. Excitinng!

 

And thanks for everyones input. I know I can be difficult sometimes.

[Ian C]

Noz, I've had a top rate aquamist injection system sat in its box for a couple of years now, all the bits and all the packaging. I can't seem to work up the enthusiasm to install it because the car works without it and I can't figure out a tidy place to put the motor and reservoir.

 

I had complex plans for this - hook the flow sensor up to the intake temp line to the EMU, and use that to advance ignition timing based on a spoof intake temp signal if the water is flowing. This means it's safe if there is no flow or too much flow, as you only increase timing at the "temperature" voltage signal the flow sensor sends when things are running correctly. It seemed to me to be the perfect safe way of improving power with water injection. I just never got the oomph behind me to plumb it all in and do the mapping sessions, frankly the car is still fast enough for me.

 

I may yet do it this summer, or you may PM me with a reasonable offer and lure me into flogging it to you

 

-Ian

[Noz]

I've finally got my kit HFS-5. Happy days.

 

Once question though.... How does the back of the nozzle connect to the pipe? Is this using a nozzle holder?

 

[Wez]

The WI feed pipe just push onto the nozzle / jet

[Chris Wilson]

I just put the jet directly into a thread I have tapped into the wall of the pipe, unless it's really thin walled. Then I TIG in a small internally threaded adaptor. I guess you could TIG on the adaptor in the photo. As Wes says, the nylon pipe for the water feed just pushes over the barbs. Thanks for the trader feedback

[Ian C]

I'm glad that kit has finally gone to a good home and will be used

[Noz]

I was thinking I should use a connector on the hosing to secure it onto the jet maybe?

[Chris Wilson]

You push the correct nylon hose on, then try and pull it off, and tell me if you think it needs any further securing It WILL NOT blow off or leak