p3te Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 I had an oil leak about 8 month ago, a small amount of oil was weeping from the front crank oil seal, as it was only a small amount of oil i just had the front seal replaced with a Toyota seal and fitted flush. But it has started leaking from the same place again http://imageshack.us/a/img707/5544/img2013031000063.th.jpg http://imageshack.us/a/img542/7203/img2013031000064.th.jpg I know Chris Wilson sells an oil seal that has a tighter wiper seal, so can overcome a groove worn in the crank shoulder, the cause of leaks assuming the oil pump itself is ok, so should i try that and hope it dosent leak again? or is it a new oil pump job? i know that's a massive job, my car has under 60k on the clock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-Ricky Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 Doesn't look a big leak, but its unlikely that the crank is grooved after 60K, but the pump is easily worn if the oil is/has been contaminated with fuel which is quite common, my seal failed at 50K due to the pump being worn by fuel contamination, so if it was me i would be replacing the pump and seal, its cheaper than a replacement engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p3te Posted March 26, 2013 Author Share Posted March 26, 2013 Doesn't look a big leak, but its unlikely that the crank is grooved after 60K, but the pump is easily worn if the oil is/has been contaminated with fuel which is quite common, my seal failed at 50K due to the pump being worn by fuel contamination, so if it was me i would be replacing the pump and seal, its cheaper than a replacement engine. i had a feeling this was gonna be the case, looks like im going to have to bite the bullet £££ how does the oil get contaminated with fuel? i changed the oil not long ago as well maybe a year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee P Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 You sure the seal is fitted correctly? 99% of front seal leaks are incorrectly fitted seal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaan W Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 Ive got this problem too, the oil pump is not that old either but then again my oil pressure reaches 13bar which im not sure if thats normal or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p3te Posted March 26, 2013 Author Share Posted March 26, 2013 You sure the seal is fitted correctly? 99% of front seal leaks are incorrectly fitted seal supposed to have been fitted flush like its supposed to yes, i have 4 - 8 bar oil pressure i think Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littler Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 Ive got this problem too, the oil pump is not that old either but then again my oil pressure reaches 13bar which im not sure if thats normal or not. that sounds high for oil pressure! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaan W Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 that sounds high for oil pressure! Thats what I thought when I hooked up my toucan and went out for a drive, thats where the high marker stays on the gauge almost everytime I take the car out. ALSO, going off topic but on the toucan the past week the water and oil temp gauges are stuck in one position reading over 100 degrees even when left over night and freezing cold in the morning like the needles stuck in that position, but it cant its an electric screen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-Ricky Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 You sure the seal is fitted correctly? 99% of front seal leaks are incorrectly fitted seal I would disagree with that completely, more like 3%. Anyway this has already been covered several times, there is a post by CW and myself covering oil pump and seal problems, but anyway oil gradually gets contaminated with all kinds of combustion by products over time, including fuel, the std fueling map is very rich on full boost, if you smell the oil on a std motor after 3-4K you will smell fuel, this can and dose reduce the ectiveness of the oil and if there are and particles metal etc this will just compound the issue, The oil pump is quite capable of supplying plenty of pressure even when badly worn, so it wont show up in the pressure readings, however because the oil leaks past the pump rotors it goes to a small drain hole back to the sump, this drain hole is not big enough, and the pressure builds up behind the seal until it overwhelms it (if your lucky) it just starts to weep , if your unlucky it will spit the spring and fold itself outwards, or displace entirely, the result is if don't catch it in time, a lunched engine, so you see its far better to deal with it while its at weep stage as it could fail at any time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee P Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 (edited) Ok maybe you see more supras than me!! I completely agree with the other faults that can cause the seal to leak. What I am saying is after working on these cars for over 8 years 99% of the time the leaks have been down to incorrectly fitted seals. I have had cars come in that have been worked on at other garages had a new seal and been leaking. I fit a new seal and its fine, no leaks. I have had 5 of these in the last year done by a well know tuners, 2 within the last 2 months I see ALOT of cars and im going by my time on them over the years. If you look back at your thread you are talking about you will see me involved agreeing with you as I sufferd the same problem as you first hand on my own car. Please dont tell me you know different when I work on these cars eveyday This is why I dont get involved to much in these kind of threads. Basically my best advise would be DOUBLE check your seal fitting first, I made a tool to fit the seal correctly, if its in 1mm to far or not sraight it WILL cause an leak. It is possible its a worn pump but trust me not very often I would disagree with that completely, more like 3%. Anyway this has already been covered several times, there is a post by CW and myself covering oil pump and seal problems, but anyway oil gradually gets contaminated with all kinds of combustion by products over time, including fuel, the std fueling map is very rich on full boost, if you smell the oil on a std motor after 3-4K you will smell fuel, this can and dose reduce the ectiveness of the oil and if there are and particles metal etc this will just compound the issue, The oil pump is quite capable of supplying plenty of pressure even when badly worn, so it wont show up in the pressure readings, however because the oil leaks past the pump rotors it goes to a small drain hole back to the sump, this drain hole is not big enough, and the pressure builds up behind the seal until it overwhelms it (if your lucky) it just starts to weep , if your unlucky it will spit the spring and fold itself outwards, or displace entirely, the result is if don't catch it in time, a lunched engine, so you see its far better to deal with it while its at weep stage as it could fail at any time. Edited March 27, 2013 by Lee P (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-Ricky Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 You may well see a lot of badly fitted seals, but that doesn't mean that all leaks are down to badly fitted seals, you obviously see a lot of Supras and i would suspect after either a mechanically inept owner or a rubbish garage has been at it, I am simply going on what i have seen here in the past and a lot of research from the US forums, along with my own experience and input from Chris Wilson. and what I'm saying is that nearly all (untouched) front oil seals leak/failure's are down to a worn oil pump overwhelming the undersize oil drain and over pressuring the seal, thats why i disagreed with you on that particular statement, I also feel that if someone reads this, that has a seal problem and thinks oh well its just a badly fitted seal, they may ignore the leak, and should it be more than just a badly fitted seal, or it just fails, the result can often be catastrophic, so I'm sorry that i kind of laboured the point but i felt it was worth avoiding someone loosing their motor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
listy Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 The oil pump is quite capable of supplying plenty of pressure even when badly worn, so it wont show up in the pressure readings, however because the oil leaks past the pump rotors it goes to a small drain hole back to the sump, this drain hole is not big enough, and the pressure builds up behind the seal until it overwhelms it (if your lucky) it just starts to weep , if your unlucky it will spit the spring and fold itself outwards, or displace entirely, the result is if don't catch it in time, a lunched engine, so you see its far better to deal with it while its at weep stage as it could fail at any time. This happened to me last year The spring from the seal was no longer where it should have been. Luckily I was only a mile from home when it happened, so I limped her back. I decided to be safe rather than sorry though, and changed the pump, new seal, and did a full oil change. I'd rather spend Looking at the pump when we changed it, there was no external sign of failure, so I don't know if it was a bad pump or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee P Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 (edited) So your saying anyone who has an original Toyota seal from factory that's leaking is down to the pump being worn??? Not just an old seal that needs replacing. We will just have to agree to disagree but I'm not saying to avoid the problem completely. The first thing to do is fit the seal correctly them move on to other things. If you fit a new seal and the pump is a problem it will leak again straight away. I don't care how much you have read ect I'm going from years of experience actually working on supras everyday and for your info most of the problems in the US were again down to them not fitting the seals correctly. There are loads of threads on it. All these modified oil pumps and tighter seals are just to cover up the fact they can't fit the dam seals properly. Rant over lol... You may well see a lot of badly fitted seals, but that doesn't mean that all leaks are down to badly fitted seals, you obviously see a lot of Supras and i would suspect after either a mechanically inept owner or a rubbish garage has been at it, I am simply going on what i have seen here in the past and a lot of research from the US forums, along with my own experience and input from Chris Wilson. and what I'm saying is that nearly all (untouched) front oil seals leak/failure's are down to a worn oil pump overwhelming the undersize oil drain and over pressuring the seal, thats why i disagreed with you on that particular statement, I also feel that if someone reads this, that has a seal problem and thinks oh well its just a badly fitted seal, they may ignore the leak, and should it be more than just a badly fitted seal, or it just fails, the result can often be catastrophic, so I'm sorry that i kind of laboured the point but i felt it was worth avoiding someone loosing their motor. Edited March 27, 2013 by Lee P (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swampy442 Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 So Lee, what do you use to fit the seal correctly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee P Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 So Lee, what do you use to fit the seal correctly? Quite simple really. We made a tool that drives the seal in evenly but the outside diameter is larger than the oil pump so it can't push the seal in too far. The pump casing has a chamfered edge so when the seal is in flush it can look like its not in far enough but it is. Even the slightest bit in too far blocks the relief hole and causes it to leak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p3te Posted March 27, 2013 Author Share Posted March 27, 2013 thanks for the advice, ill have it checked and make sure its 100% flush, if it leaks again i guess its a new pump needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee P Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 thanks for the advice, ill have it checked and make sure its 100% flush, if it leaks again i guess its a new pump needed. Exactly just double check its flush and straight. If you can post or send me a picture so I can double check. If it is still leaking and its fitted spot on then yes you need to look at the oil pump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p3te Posted March 27, 2013 Author Share Posted March 27, 2013 im trying to find some pictures of how its supposed to be fitted, http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_articles/id/2823/pageid/5536/extreme-engine-tech-2jz-gte-part-2--more-lubrication-good-vibrations.aspx is that it on the bottom pic? flush with the front of the seal or should it be flush where there's a little rebate on the seal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-Ricky Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Obviously my points are totally unfounded, so I'll just not bother to post on any front seal posts, and let the owners just get on with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p3te Posted March 27, 2013 Author Share Posted March 27, 2013 Obviously my points are totally unfounded, so I'll just not bother to post on any front seal posts, and let the owners just get on with it. i said thanks for the advice, i appreciate advice from all members that's why i posted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-Ricky Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 i said thanks for the advice, i appreciate advice from all members that's why i posted Sorry fella wasn't aimed at you, apparently LeeP thinks my input is not valid, just forgot to add the quote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swampy442 Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Cheers mate. I only asked because I destroyed 40 quid of seal when it went in at an angle. Ill find something that can fit over the crank nose and get it down flush. Quite simple really. We made a tool that drives the seal in evenly but the outside diameter is larger than the oil pump so it can't push the seal in too far. The pump casing has a chamfered edge so when the seal is in flush it can look like its not in far enough but it is. Even the slightest bit in too far blocks the relief hole and causes it to leak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee P Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Sorry fella wasn't aimed at you, apparently LeeP thinks my input is not valid, just forgot to add the quote. Im not saying that at all, you are exactly right with saying that the front seal can leak because of the pump. That is spot on. But dont tell me that everytime it leaks its the pump as that is simply not true, a worn or incorrectly fitted seal is the most common issue. If that doesnt fix it and it still leaks then yes you change the pump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee P Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Cheers mate. I only asked because I destroyed 40 quid of seal when it went in at an angle. Ill find something that can fit over the crank nose and get it down flush. Yeah its easily done and as I have been trying to express in this thread is the most common issue, its very easy to damage the seal or pop the spring off the back tying to fit it with out a decent tool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SupraHW Posted April 2, 2013 Share Posted April 2, 2013 Got exactly the same problem atm... Idling gives no problem, only after a short trip ( boosting 2 times ) the plate under my sump is wet of oil! Just replaced front crank seal ( done by mechanic ) , starting to think it is a worn oil pump... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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