ksbkrew Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 Hi! i'm worrying about knocking with my car ( a uk single with 850cc) I'm boosting at 1.4bar-1.5bars with a XS T70 and running at 11.0 AFR (with a mapecu1 so cannot play with the advance/retard of timing) I'm never get a CEL flashing while rolling and boosting up to the max of RPM so i think that the OEM knock sensor doesn't hear a problem. But my question is : can we trust the OEM Sensor?? i have seen that some knock light are available (like gizzmo or turboXS), are they more reliable than the oem? is there any interest of buying one? or my OEM one will do correctly his job and warns me when there 's a real problem?? Many thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mellonman Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 Wow you really need a ecu that can retard timing or your just sitting on a time bomb literary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksbkrew Posted January 27, 2013 Author Share Posted January 27, 2013 Why? Can you explain me? Can adjustable pulley changes that? I have seen some supra cars rollling with mapecu1 without problems I wont go more than 520hp at crank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksbkrew Posted January 27, 2013 Author Share Posted January 27, 2013 With driving with the oem timing i was thinking that the only risk was to lose power but not broken an engine , no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mellonman Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 the stock timing is for 2 small trubo's in sequencial not one that comes online at 4,000rpm that flows twice as much air, i expect you will be deting all over the place top end low down you will be loosing power by running rich with timing pulled for the first turbo or where it would be , i have a T67 with a piggy back ecu that has 10 deg timing pulled up top for my map at 1.3 bar even when i had hybrids this had 5 deg timing pulled to stop det, adjustable cam pulleys might help but not solve the ignition timing thats the issue the supra's that you see runing with a mapecu1 could well be a 1jz that have a map for single turbo, the map2ecu would be alot better choice IMHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mellonman Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 sorry in answer to your question im not sure how much i would relie on the stock know sensor to pull timing or even put out a cel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksbkrew Posted January 28, 2013 Author Share Posted January 28, 2013 so i can expect some damages to my engine? i 'm gonna take a look at the pistons with a camera to see if there's some det impact on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mellonman Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 im not the best person to comment on that but but i would of thought so, could be wrong but well worth a £15 ebay bore scope to check Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksbkrew Posted January 28, 2013 Author Share Posted January 28, 2013 thanks for your help if it get any damages, i'm gonna start a full rebuild on it, throw my mapecu in my garage, and buy a emanage or something like... Hopes it don"t get det marks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mellonman Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 no worries hope that it was of some help good luck with it and keep me posted on what you find would be intresting to know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksbkrew Posted January 28, 2013 Author Share Posted January 28, 2013 no worries hope that it was of some help good luck with it and keep me posted on what you find would be intresting to know i'm gonna try to take some pics, one of my friend got a bore scope with a camera on it so i will test it in the week! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 The stock knock system uses two knock sensors not one, it is very very good but you are asking it to protect you way outside what was originally intended, the fact its still going is testament to Toyota R&D and over development. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksbkrew Posted January 28, 2013 Author Share Posted January 28, 2013 one thing i forget to mention is that i'm running a UK car, so the ECU is not the same than the jdm one, the OEM timing are different than the jdm, and ready to run on SP95ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksbkrew Posted January 28, 2013 Author Share Posted January 28, 2013 my aim was more to have a warning if there's a real problem concerning knock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Paine Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Sounds like it is a bit late fir that bud! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mellonman Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Sounds like it is a bit late fir that bud! My thoughts exactly damage is probably already been done running a t70 at 1.5 bar How long has it been running with the mapecu like that? Are you actually hear knock your self now? What actual size is the T70? 70mm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksbkrew Posted January 28, 2013 Author Share Posted January 28, 2013 the size is 68mm, i had run approx 5-600miles like that, pulling 30-40times from 40 to 160miles per hour. i dont hear any knock by my hears, and some friend that sits on my car never hear something wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksbkrew Posted January 28, 2013 Author Share Posted January 28, 2013 http://mkivsupra.net/vbb/showthread.php?262971-1993-HKS-T04R-Single-Turbo-UK-spec-Auto-%A35800 this member seems to drive with a mapecu and with a T04R without issues, and get 567hp , and it's a uk like mine, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 i have a T67 with a piggy back ecu that has 10 deg timing pulled up top for my map at 1.3 bar even when i had hybrids this had 5 deg timing pulled to stop det, adjustable cam pulleys might help but not solve the ignition timing thats the issue Interesting, I'm running an EMU and I pull all of 0 degrees of timing throughout my 1.3bar load sites, and even 1.4bar, my maximum. I also advance up to 15deg below 4000rpm off/low boost as well. No det at all, as verified by det cans and years of running it like this. Perhaps you have an underlying issue like a hot spot in the cylinder head? T61's I used to have to remove a couple of degrees of timing around the sequential transition point, but that was it. I've never had to remove anything like ten degrees. Edit - do you have a MINES ECU or something that might already have a more aggressive timing map? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mellonman Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Interesting, I'm running an EMU and I pull all of 0 degrees of timing throughout my 1.3bar load sites, and even 1.4bar, my maximum. I also advance up to 15deg below 4000rpm off/low boost as well. No det at all, as verified by det cans and years of running it like this. Perhaps you have an underlying issue like a hot spot in the cylinder head? T61's I used to have to remove a couple of degrees of timing around the sequential transition point, but that was it. I've never had to remove anything like ten degrees. Edit - do you have a MINES ECU or something that might already have a more aggressive timing map? this is intresting i have a stock jspec ecu with the fic 8 to be fair it did have a firm ware issue that may have caused this issue but it made good power as it is 524bhp / 510ftlb @ 1.3 bar T67 0.68 dbb i can only guess that the timing must be advanced at the crank then or hot spot as you say, even when i searched on supra forums they have 7 deg pulled with most of there maps but have poor gas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksbkrew Posted January 30, 2013 Author Share Posted January 30, 2013 and the result is: det damages on cylinder 1-2-3-4-6. The only which is without damages is the 5. i'm disgusted... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 and the result is: det damages on cylinder 1-2-3-4-6. The only which is without damages is the 5. i'm disgusted... Unfortunately the cause of that... I'm boosting at 1.4bar-1.5bars with a XS T70 and running at 11.0 AFR (with a mapecu1 so cannot play with the advance/retard of timing) Is pretty obvious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 this is intresting i have a stock jspec ecu with the fic 8 to be fair it did have a firm ware issue that may have caused this issue but it made good power as it is 524bhp / 510ftlb @ 1.3 bar T67 0.68 dbb I can only guess that the timing must be advanced at the crank then or hot spot as you say, even when i searched on supra forums they have 7 deg pulled with most of there maps but have poor gas I've got a T67 dbb with a 0.68 housing as well At 1.4bar it dyno'd 570bhp @SRR, and that was with 4deg timing backed off due to my paranoia, so it'll be a tad more than that now as that timing is back in. Going up to 1.4 and putting your 10deg timing back in would prob lift you up to the same output, so your timing must be actually retarded rather than it being some red herring reading. Hmm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mellonman Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 and the result is: det damages on cylinder 1-2-3-4-6. The only which is without damages is the 5. i'm disgusted... feel sorry for you mate but it was to be expected with no real mapping with det cans or a ecu that can retard timing , get a decent ecu mate pay there and save on not having to rebuild again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mellonman Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 I've got a T67 dbb with a 0.68 housing as well At 1.4bar it dyno'd 570bhp @SRR, and that was with 4deg timing backed off due to my paranoia, so it'll be a tad more than that now as that timing is back in. Going up to 1.4 and putting your 10deg timing back in would prob lift you up to the same output, so your timing must be actually retarded rather than it being some red herring reading. Hmm. Hay stop calling my car retarded to be fair i had a look at my map last night its 8deg at 1.3 and 10deg at 1.4 hard to tell fully as its in psia (absolute so changes slighty depending where you are to sea level), but it goes well and is safe so im happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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