Jellybean Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 anybody have advice on running wi, was thinking its a good idea since we only have 95 octane here Hard to install? Aem best kit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-Ricky Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 Aquamist are the best kits and much better if ECU controlled, but not cheap, used to run one on my big single Supra. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 Prob a good idea on a jspec stock motor with only 95 available to add a safety margin. I would also go with a 50/50 water / meth mix. As for hard to install it depends how crazy you want to go, most systems include a single jet before the throttle which is nice and easy but you can go crazy with mappable systems, failsafes, multi jet, direct port etc etc I think most Supras running WI use a single jet, mine included. There is lots of info on the Aquamist forum http://www.aquamist.co.uk/vbulletin/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 Aquamist are the best kits and much better if ECU controlled, but not cheap, used to run one on my big single Supra. Agreed, I rewired mine from the supplied pressure switch so the Syvecs controls it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jellybean Posted January 15, 2013 Author Share Posted January 15, 2013 Thanks! I just want to run bpu safely, she is running the sard analyse ecu ROM; mine is boost cut at 1.4 and delimited; she revs same as stock but she may be running more aggressive timing She is running fine for 6 yrs now , just read about wi and taught it looks like avoid safety feature for me I don't want the car dependant on it in case it failed How long does the tank last? Are filling it up constantly? Where do you get methanol to mix with water? Can you not just run distilled water? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jellybean Posted January 21, 2013 Author Share Posted January 21, 2013 I did a lot of research on this, thanks to Wez link and Youtube but I cannot find any Answers 's to these two Q's How long does the tank last? Are you filling it up constantly? Thinking AEM KIT I was trying to source methanol here in Ireland and it is very difficult to get, looks like it is only available in 200L drums, Can you just run distilled water? or is the kit pointless methanol Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Agreed, I rewired mine from the supplied pressure switch so the Syvecs controls it how have you setup the syvecs to control WI? - run a more aggressive map when its got water - run a less aggressive map when its empty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-Ricky Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Simple answer is, depends on how much you use the car on boost, i used a 5lt container and my WI was also injected and ECU controlled and i would not need to refill the container for about two month's, but then i didn't use the car much, There is no definitive answer, as there are two many variables. For charge and in cylinder cooling water alone is fine, i found very little difference between running just water and 50% methanol mix, although some will say different i'm sure, you can usually get methanol from RC model shops in 5lt containers, but you need to make sure its pure and not one with an oil additive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jellybean Posted January 21, 2013 Author Share Posted January 21, 2013 Simple answer is, depends on how much you use the car on boost, i used a 5lt container and my WI was also injected and ECU controlled and i would not need to refill the container for about two month's, but then i didn't use the car much, There is no definitive answer, as there are two many variables. For charge and in cylinder cooling water alone is fine, i found very little difference between running just water and 50% methanol mix, although some will say different i'm sure, you can usually get methanol from RC model shops in 5lt containers, but you need to make sure its pure and not one with an oil additive. Thanks! I was just looking for a reference point , I wasn't too sure if you would use up a tank after a few boost pulls I will try the RC model shops ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Simple answer is, depends on how much you use the car on boost, i used a 5lt container and my WI was also injected and ECU controlled and i would not need to refill the container for about two month's, but then i didn't use the car much, There is no definitive answer, as there are two many variables. Couldn't we work it out just by the flow rate of the jet and your solenoid duty cycle or something? A ballpark figure at least, tell you roughly how many seconds of on-boost you can have for an x litre water tank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David P Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 The aim is to run the water, or water/meth 15% fuel parallel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jellybean Posted January 21, 2013 Author Share Posted January 21, 2013 The aim is to run the water, or water/meth 15% fuel parallel. Hey Do you know what is the advantage of running meth too over just water , if any? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David P Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 (edited) Water cools the charge and methanol raises the octane. Very dangerous to run meth only, it's flammable with invisible flames. 50/50 is the best of both. Edited January 21, 2013 by David P (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-Ricky Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Couldn't we work it out just by the flow rate of the jet and your solenoid duty cycle or something? A ballpark figure at least, tell you roughly how many seconds of on-boost you can have for an x litre water tank If i still had the car, and could remember the settings then i guess it would be possible, but I'm afraid i don't think i have any logs or ECU maps left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Oh yes I forgot it was long gone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jellybean Posted January 21, 2013 Author Share Posted January 21, 2013 Water cools the charge and methanol raises the octane. Very dangerous to run meth only, it's flammable with invisible flames. 50/50 is the best of both. thanks! Just out of curiosity what keeps the internal parts clean, Meth or Water? Was talking to Marty and he was saying as an alternative option to forget about water/Meth injection and just blend a 15% mix of Meth with the Fuel instead. He stopped using the injection and just blends fuel now. Central Chemical Supplies, in County Down. They charge £1 (150cents) per litre IIRC Only thing I will say is I ran E5 (5% ethanol) before and found my car runs smoother on Texaco 95. Simon found the same in his R33 but his is mapped for 95 octane so not too sure if he would notice a difference One of the other GTR(R35) guys said he runs The NF race formula octane booster have had great results running with NF race formula octane booster, logged my engine knock sums during my trackdays and have virtually zero which is amazing as even stock you get sums up and above -400, (approx -250 is one degree of timing pulled) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-Ricky Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Its the water that helps clean the internal parts of the combustion chamber, if you just want to raise the fuel octane then a proprietary octane booster is probably the easiest to use, otherwise the options are ethanol or toluene. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jellybean Posted January 21, 2013 Author Share Posted January 21, 2013 Its the water that helps clean the internal parts of the combustion chamber, if you just want to raise the fuel octane then a proprietary octane booster is probably the easiest to use, otherwise the options are ethanol or toluene. they are my options , Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jellybean Posted January 21, 2013 Author Share Posted January 21, 2013 (edited) Can anybody explain to me the adv's/dis-adv's of the location of the Water injector http://www.rallycars.com/Cars/WaterInjection.html There are mainly three variations of water injection systems. They are dependent of the location of the water injectors. The first technique consists of injecting water at the entrance of the intake manifold. The second injects water at the exit pipe of the intercooler. The third technique injects water at the entry of the intercooler what octane increase will you get using 50/50 Water /Meth mix? Edited January 21, 2013 by Jellybean (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noz Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 (edited) You want it as far away from the throttle body as possible giving it good enough time to evenly spread in the media of charge. before the intercooler is a bad idea, a common problem is water collecting at the bottom. The other problem is it doesnt have the volume to properly mix with air as it's hitting an intercooler, also remembering you will have un-even distribution in the area just before the intercooler due to the air being seperated at entry. Inlet systsms are used when a huge volume of water/meth is needed. A huge injection of water/meth won't mix correcly with a single jet, therefore spread the jets across cylinders which costs alot more money, harder to control and not required against a setup that will function at the safe boost WITHOUT meth and it purely a safe guard. These are typically used on systems which are way past the boundries of typical det on stock fuel. Most common one to use is a single just pre throttle body. If you install air intake sensors pre-intercooler and pre-throttle body but as far away from the meth, you can technically prove the benefits of lower temp's as well. Otherwise its just a safe guard that may or may not be working. Whatever kit you get, ensure you get a flow gauge for failsafe options. Aquamist do this as standard per kit which is also why they are alot more to buy. what octane increase will you get using 50/50 Water /Meth mix? Meth is 114, obviously the percentag of that to your fuel will depend on the final outcome of the final octane. Edited January 21, 2013 by Noz (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-Ricky Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Nice copy and paste but it doesn't really answer the question, Std charge cooling the advised jet placement is just after the IC outlet, for in cylinder cooling and primary det suppression then just before the throttle body, you can achieve the best of both by splitting the the total water requirement over two smaller jets. As for an octaine increase, IMO/exsperience a 50/50 meth water mix will not lincrease the octane rating beyond the normal 100% of water, and this is also very dependent on the amount of water being injected, this can be theoretically calculated but in my experience not two set ups and states of tune are the same, so this will be different for each application, what work well for one motor will not always work on another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jellybean Posted January 21, 2013 Author Share Posted January 21, 2013 (edited) Thanks! I am just about to get a quote on some chemicals off chemical Supplier in NI , to blend with 95 octane fuel What is the best to go for Methanol RON 108.7 xylene RON 117 toluene RON 111 ethanol RON 108.6 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating Edited January 21, 2013 by Jellybean (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noz Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Nice copy and paste but it doesn't really answer the question, Std charge cooling the advised jet placement is just after the IC outlet, for in cylinder cooling and primary det suppression then just before the throttle body, you can achieve the best of both by splitting the the total water requirement over two smaller jets. As for an octaine increase, IMO/exsperience a 50/50 meth water mix will not lincrease the octane rating beyond the normal 100% of water, and this is also very dependent on the amount of water being injected, this can be theoretically calculated but in my experience not two set ups and states of tune are the same, so this will be different for each application, what work well for one motor will not always work on another. Sorry, copy and paste? Did I miss something? I didn't realise just before the TB was best for det reduction. And I've installed a twin intake air sensor to ensure I know whats going on before I install a jet. I didn't copy and paste anything. Thanks for the advice though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-Ricky Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Sorry, copy and paste? Did I miss something? I didn't realise just before the TB was best for det reduction. And I've installed a twin intake air sensor to ensure I know whats going on before I install a jet. I didn't copy and paste anything. Thanks for the advice though. Sorry bud, i realise it wasn't copy and paste, but what i meant was that you have taken what you have read and relayed it in your own fashion, but didn't really answer his questions, so i shouldn't have been facetious. Its not recommended anywhere that i know of to inject water pre intercooler, some advocate turbo intake WI but i am not convinced that its worth all the effort, you right about getting the best possible atomisation, and this is best achieved by splitting the water over two or more jets. Yes det reduction is best dealt with by in cylinder cooling effect/heat absorption of the atomised water vapour, which is best achieved by injecting pre throttle or directly into each cylinder runner, but charge cooling will also help with supressing det on its own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noz Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Its ok mate I spose I do waffle on when I get excited that theres a topic I can talk about. So, standard WI setup, though would work with typical single jet, would it be worth consider two jets even if just for det reduction? I was looking at two jets, but obviously if more than one helps spread the volume I can believe it would work better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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