Going 600bhp using the 2jz-GE.

[johnny g]

Well, if you're going for coils, you can buy my Titan 272

[Noz]

I'd like a 264 intake and 272 exhaust cam, that would give good results.

 

thing is, 272 require's aftermarket springs due to the extra lift that comes with the cam. so with 264's you could keep the stock (even if new) springs.

 

just saying... even though i want that cam

[Nic]

Also could we please keep this on topic, I've heard the whole ( why don't you just buy a 2jz-GTE and be done with it!) a million times! Lol

 

[mattdavies]

 

The more i read this thread the more I can see it easier to buy the engine minus turbo's. BUT the OP obviously wants something to do so I can see why he doesnt want to do it.

[Noz]

how is it easier? upgrading an NA-T is loads different to swapping the engine just for something you already have just with a lower compression?

 

swap the pistons and he has exactly what a new TT lump will give him. he will need new injectors ECU turbo bu wont need all the other component required to run a TT, manifold, intake, lume.

 

swapping a TT lump into an NA-T is silly. if he was NA it might be worth it.

[Nic]

swapping a TT lump into an NA-T is silly. if he was NA it might be worth it.

 

Didn't realise it already had a NA-T kit fitted, thought he was starting from scratch with a GE motor.

[Dan_Turism0]

If the specs are to be believed then this is extremely impressive

 

[FOSTA]

The more i read this thread the more I can see it easier to buy the engine minus turbo's. BUT the OP obviously wants something to do so I can see why he doesnt want to do it.

 

Nail on the head mate!

 

I'm already NA-T and have been for the last 2 years, I just wanted to build another engine separate from the one that's already up and running in the car.

And build this one myself to see if I can hit 600bhp with it.

No reason for it other than it gives me excitement to try and as my car is my hobby it give me somthing to do. Well after I've built a fence and painted it as hodge stated pmsl

[FOSTA]

Ok I've been searching and reading about compression for the last few days now and I think I have alot more of a understanding.

 

The only thing I'm not a 100% on is A thing called *squish*

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in reading up on this would I be correct in saying to get optimal combustion the squish as to be at or as close as it was set factory? As doing this will give me more power and reliability?

 

Now the way I read up on how to achieve the stock squish and lower the compression at the same time is as follows :

 

GE BOTTOM - GE HEAD- GE HEAD GASKET - GTE PISTONS.

 

Now would I be wrong in thinking that if I fitted a 1.6mm GTE head gasket, this would make the piston sit further away from the GE head causing the squish level to raise resulting in slower combustion and higher risk of detention?

 

 

 

 

I could be wrong in what I'm thinking, so if someone could shed some light on this

[Nic]

Ok I've been searching and reading about compression for the last few days now and I think I have alot more of a understanding.

 

The only thing I'm not a 100% on is A thing called *squish*

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in reading up on this would I be correct in saying to get optimal combustion the squish as to be at or as close as it was set factory? As doing this will give me more power and reliability?

 

Now the way I read up on how to achieve the stock squish and lower the compression at the same time is as follows :

 

GE BOTTOM - GE HEAD- GE HEAD GASKET - GTE PISTONS.

 

Now would I be wrong in thinking that if I fitted a 1.6mm GTE head gasket, this would make the piston sit further away from the GE head causing the squish level to raise resulting in slower combustion and higher risk of detention?

 

 

 

 

I could be wrong in what I'm thinking, so if someone could shed some light on this

 

The squish area/band is the very narrow flat area between the cylinder head and the piston crown, it's there to force the air/fuel mix towards the center of the combustion chamber to improve the burn. Fitting a thicker head gasket, or mixing GTE pistons and GE head will make this less effective.

http://www.muller.net/mullermachine/docs/squish1.gif

[Noz]

Turbo conversions have been done for years using thicker head gaskets. It's worth further research into if this is going to be an issue. The `best` way doesn't mean that it may the only way or even the most noticable form of compression change.

 

No comparison has been done that I've found against the two, so it's only through recommendation to keep the effectiveness of the design at it's maximum. Though there is clearly a band of performance, as the squish area is increased with both gasket and pistons and still performs well (though the process may have worked better with a more effective squish area more power is more obtainable with lower compression).

 

You can calculate the difference in volume with the thicker gasket and I'm sure there must be a calculation somewhere that can give you volume efficiency against extra squish volume.

 

With a lower compression and less effective squish you may loose power, but with the lower compression comes the ability to increase the power by a much larger value. So it's a trade off in my opinion, one in which need's further research against how detrimental this change in the function of the chamber's performance actually is.

[FOSTA]

The squish area/band is the very narrow flat area between the cylinder head and the piston crown, it's there to force the air/fuel mix towards the center of the combustion chamber to improve the burn. Fitting a thicker head gasket, or mixing GTE pistons and GE head will make this less effective.

http://www.muller.net/mullermachine/docs/squish1.gif

 

 

Thanks for that nic,

But correct me if I'm wrong here: both GE and GTE pistons sit 0.5 below the deck and both the gte and GE valves are the same and they also have the same groves milled out of the piston top, so that area is the same if you use the GE pistons or gte. The only differance is the centre of the gte piston is lower resulting in Lower compression?

 

Thanks

[FOSTA]

I found this on the us forum:

 

 

Both pistons sit .004”/.005” below the top of the block.

The GE combustion chamber is virtually a GTE chamber with a .030” recess machined at bore diameter. When you add the GE head gasket, .010” compressed, you get about .045” (1.14mm) piston to cylinder head clearance. With the GTE (no recess) the head gasket is .050”compressed and you get about .055” (1.4mm) piston to cylinder head clearance.

It is generally accepted that .032”(.8mm) is the minimum safe piston to cyl head clearance.

It is also generally accepted that when the piston to cyl head clearance exceeds .060”(1.5mm) the squish effect is severely diminished.

So, if you use a GE head gasket and a GTE head, .015”(.37mm) clearance, THE PISTON WILL HIT THE HEAD.

If you use a GTE head gasket and a GE head (NA/T) you end up with .085”(2.15mm) clearance and a less than effective squish.

The GE HG volume is 1.51cc & the GTE HG volume is 7.55cc a difference of 6.04cc

 

GE combustion chamber (head, gasket, piston) 55.5cc

+ GTE head gasket extra 6.04cc Gives .085”(2.15mm) squish

= 61.54cc = 9.12: 1

 

GE combustion chamber (head, gasket, piston ) 55.5cc

+ GTE piston extra 6.7cc Gives std GE squish .045"(1.14mm)

= 62.2cc = 9.03: 1

 

GTE combustion chamber (head, gasket, piston) 66.6cc

+ GE piston minus 6.7cc Gives std GTE squish .055"(1.4mm)

= 59.9cc = 9.34: 1

[FOSTA]

Turbo conversions have been done for years using thicker head gaskets. It's worth further research into if this is going to be an issue. The `best` way doesn't mean that it may the only way or even the most noticable form of compression change.

 

No comparison has been done that I've found against the two, so it's only through recommendation to keep the effectiveness of the design at it's maximum. Though there is clearly a band of performance, as the squish area is increased with both gasket and pistons and still performs well (though the process may have worked better with a more effective squish area more power is more obtainable with lower compression).

 

You can calculate the difference in volume with the thicker gasket and I'm sure there must be a calculation somewhere that can give you volume efficiency against extra squish volume.

 

With a lower compression and less effective squish you may loose power, but with the lower compression comes the ability to increase the power by a much larger value. So it's a trade off in my opinion, one in which need's further research against how detrimental this change in the function of the chamber's performance actually is.

 

Oh yeah I understand and know it works but what I want to know is: could the engine make 600bhp with The compression at 9.03.1, using just the gte pistons to lower the compression so that I'm not affecting the squish pattern?

 

Cheers dude

[Noz]

Good bit of info there. Reckon that solves that problem then

 

Look to see if TT engines have made that power with that compression.

[FOSTA]

Good bit of info there. Reckon that solves that problem then

 

Look to see if TT engines have made that power with that compression.

 

i dont think a tt could use that compression as if a tt uses the ge gasket to raise the comprssion, wont the valves hit the pistons? i could be wrong tho.

 

how are you building your engine mate? what compression and power are you aiming for mate?

 

cheers

[Al Massey]

i dont think a tt could use that compression as if a tt uses the ge gasket to raise the comprssion, wont the valves hit the pistons? i could be wrong tho.

 

how are you building your engine mate? what compression and power are you aiming for mate?

 

cheers

 

I was under the impression that if using a gte head gasket it's increasing the distance between the pistons and valves

 

Hence highering the compression?

 

 

Does anybody know any detrimental effect using gte pistons and head gasket in a n/a block and head?

[Noz]

i dont think a tt could use that compression as if a tt uses the ge gasket to raise the comprssion, wont the valves hit the pistons? i could be wrong tho.

 

how are you building your engine mate? what compression and power are you aiming for mate?

 

cheers

 

600bhp and then add nos. not alot, probably 35/50 shot, just so i can learn and say ive done it. something to tick off the `ive done it` list. same way as you on the block, TT pistons, acl bearings stronger head bolts arp etc etc new main bearings line boring yadda yadda yadda. i WAS going to use a TT HG i have. im unsure as of yet. id rather sacrifice squish for more power. it may affect how effective each chamber flows, but its been done before without serious problems and i want a little bit more with the nos and i didnt want to risk 9.#:1 with nitrous, didnt think it would be a good idea. i was going to try and get head work IF i could affect ANY work at all but all depends on cash flow.

 

I was under the impression that if using a gte head gasket it's increasing the distance between the pistons and valves

 

Hence highering the compression?

 

 

Does anybody know any detrimental effect using gte pistons and head gasket in a n/a block and head?

 

GTE HG & GTE Pistons will just lower compression LOADS. lower than TT I think. may affect it a little, you would want a standalone if you run high power with a lowered squish performance for sure as it could be more difficult to tune (im no expect though, maybe worth asking your mapper).

[FOSTA]

do you think a compression of 9.03.1 with supporting mods could achieve 600bhp? if so then thats the way i will go

[tkddav3]

do you think a compression of 9.03.1 with supporting mods could achieve 600bhp? if so then thats the way i will go

 

i think you should just go back to n/a mate.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[FOSTA]

i think you should just go back to n/a mate.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RobD]

So if I read this right, TT pistons, NA head gasket and the compression will be spot on for around 600bhp?

 

I'm trying to get a few bits together to do an NA-T ATM, what's needed exactly to run a FFIM etc?

[Chris Wilson]

You want about 8.5 to 8.75 to 1 CR to run pump fuel with half decent off boost efficiency. 9.0 to 1 with good fuel, very good mapping and modest boost levels. I would be interested to see this difference in gasket thickness, as far as I remember they are both the same, TT and N/A. NEVER just trust specs, ALWAYS MEASURE the volumes and calculate the ACTUAL CR on your specific parts combination. It's quite easy to do this.

[FOSTA]

So if I read this right, TT pistons, NA head gasket and the compression will be spot on for around 600bhp?

 

I'm trying to get a few bits together to do an NA-T ATM, what's needed exactly to run a FFIM etc?

 

 

Yep, as far as I'm aware this is the best setup for the GE engine.

A lot if people fit just the GTE headgasket and have had no noticeable problems what so ever! But it isn't the Best or most efficient way to do it. But I've found 3 people so far that is running over 600bhp on that set up!

 

Doing it this way causes our squish to be off and lowers the compression down to 9.12.1

 

If we fit the GE (stock) gasket and fit the GTE pistons this gives us the correct squish So the engine runs more efficient and lowers our compression down to 9.03.1 so ever so slightly more than by just fitting the GTE gasket.

 

Obviously like Chris says, our compression may not be exact to these measurements but I think they will be pritty close as they have been measured with compressed gaskets.

 

Oh and I'm not saying your engine will make 600bhp by doing this, as obviously you will need the correct supporting mods to take you there. but all I know at this point is a few people have made it with that CR.

Im now looking my self to find the correct supporting mods.

Edited October 21, 2012 by FOSTA (see edit history)

[RobD]

Well if you have any spare NA-T parts let me know! I need everything ATM